Post Status Cache Up With Mary Hubbard

Transcript ↓

In this podcast episode, host Michelle Frechette interviews Mary Hubbard, the newly appointed Executive Director of WordPress. They discuss Mary’s professional journey, including her roles at Automattic and TikTok, and her recent move to the Pacific Northwest. The conversation covers her experiences with e-commerce, technology, and parenting. Mary shares her excitement about the WordPress community and her vision for its future. The episode also touches on the evolution of technology, the importance of adaptability, and personal anecdotes, creating a lively and insightful dialogue about leadership and innovation in the tech world.

Top Takeaways:

The Power of Context in Leadership: Mary emphasizes the importance of understanding context in leadership and decision-making. By knowing the “why” behind decisions, team members can navigate challenges more effectively, even if they don’t always agree with the direction. This context-sharing fosters trust and clarity, making everyday tasks easier and enabling better decision-making.
Being a Supportive and Approachable Leader: Mary shows the value of being available and responsive to her team. She is proactive in offering help, as shown when she reached out to Michelle during the co-release coordinator role process. This type of outreach helps people feel seen and supported, contributing to a positive team dynamic.
Being Comfortable with the Unknown and Seeking Help: Mary highlights that it’s okay not to have all the answers. She encourages others to reach out when they don’t know something, emphasizing that asking questions is an important part of learning and improving. This openness to seeking help fosters a growth-oriented environment, where curiosity and learning are welcomed.

Mentioned In The Show:

Mary Hubbard (Executive Director, WordPress, Automattic)
Michelle Frechette (Director of Community Relations, Post Status)
Olivia Bisset (Intern, Post Status)

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Transcript

Michelle Frechette 00:00:02 Welcome to the Cache, Cacheing Up podcast from Post Status. I guess it’s called Cache Up because we are catching up with people. Haha. Little plan words there. Sorry, I, I leaned 100% into the nerd side of the world. So today, today my guest is Mary Hubbard. Mary, it is so good to see you. You are the Executive Director of WordPress. Did I get that right?

Mary Hubbard: Yes, yes.

Michelle Frechette: Awesome. I made sure to read it to make sure I had it right beforehand, but we’ve been chatting for a little while, so I wanted to make sure I didn’t forget what it was.And you’ve been in your role just, I think a little under four months now or probably like three months in change something.

Mary Hubbard 00:00:38 Yeah, yeah, I started I started officially like the first week of September.

Michelle Frechette 00:00:43 Okay. So October 20….

Mary Hubbard 00:00:46 The first week of November.

Michelle Frechette 00:00:47 Right. So October 24th is when they put the announcement out on the WordPress.org blog. So that’s what I was going by. So yeah. So you’re about a quarter of a year in. You stepped into a very rapid moving river because WordPress does not slow down. But it’s not foreign to you. So, first I’m going to ask you to talk a little bit about who you are, where you live. I know which part of the world you’re in. I think that’s always good to know when you’re talking to somebody who’s not in your own time zone, or whether you discover they’re in your time zone, but also it gives a little insight into what the weather’s like where you are. I experienced a lot of snow, too, and you and I are not in the same place. So yeah, just to give you a little bit about who you are and what you’d like to share about your life.

Mary Hubbard 00:01:28 Sure. I, I recently relocated to the Pacific Northwest, so I am in a town called Issaquah, Washington. It’s in the mountains suburb of Seattle. And what brought us here was that, obviously, I was working for TikTok before, and TikTok is RTO5.

Mary Hubbard 00:01:45 And so they’re headquartered in Bellevue for our division. And so I was I relocated up here from California, but I’m a California native, so I was born and raised in California. And then of course, lived in random areas throughout the United States and globally. But yeah, I’m a little surprised by the Seattle weather. Like, I’m currently in seven inches of snow. I did not miss that. But, hey, schools are closed, so, you know, you get to deal with the children as well.

Michelle Frechette 00:02:13 Exactly, exactly.

Mary Hubbard 00:02:15 Good times.

Michelle Frechette 00:02:16 Yeah. We don’t close schools here unless there’s about four feet of snow. Because I’m from western New York, where we’re really used to it. But we did close school last week because it was subzero temperatures, and they have to close when it’s that cold, because so many kids have to wait outside for a while for the bus, and they have to. And within a half a mile, I think it is at certain ages they have to walk to school and that’s too dangerous for frostbite. So everybody got a day off of school last week, so.

Mary Hubbard 00:02:41 Could you imagine? I couldn’t. I guess that that that is the old story though, that we heard growing up. I had to walk in the snow.

Michelle Frechette 00:02:49 Uphill both ways.

Mary Hubbard 00:02:51 Both ways. Yeah. I don’t know if people still tell that story. Like, I don’t think I’ve ever told that story to my children. I don’t know if there’s stories exist anymore, but they did at one point in our childhood.

Michelle Frechette 00:03:01 Yes, somewhere between my kids and the kids of that are entering school today will be the story of. And there was a whole year where we had to do school in front of a computer at home.

Mary Hubbard 00:03:11 Yeah. Yes.

Michelle Frechette 00:03:13 It’s amazing what things become part of your story.

Mary Hubbard 00:03:16 My son asked me recently, because we just. The whole family got over the stomach flu, and he was recently saying, like, I don’t know, maybe we should start wearing masks when we travel. And I’m like, that’s a very good idea. Because he does remember wearing a mask. Like, maybe you should wear a mask on a plane. But then I’m like, no, get those germs, boy. You’re seven. Get those germs.

Michelle Frechette 00:03:39 Yes, exactly. I know, I know about chicken pox parties. I don’t I never actually participated in one, but like the chicken pox parties, like, everybody’s got kids who have chicken pox. Get em all together. Get it over with quick.

Mary Hubbard 00:03:51 That doesn’t mean that’s not even a thing anymore. I remember the chicken chickenpox parties, but both of my kids are vaccinated for chicken pox. But I remember that. Clear as day. Clear as day. Coming over and everybody hanging out, and then us all getting it together. Yeah. Big time. The 80s. They were a good time.

Michelle Frechette 00:04:07 I want to look at my lollipop. So you’ll make sure you get it. Yeah. That kind of thing.

Mary Hubbard 00:04:11 That kind of thing..

Michelle Frechette 00:04:11 My daughter’s 33. She was also vaccinated. She was among the first kids that age group to get vaccinated.

Michelle Frechette 00:04:17 Oh, really?

Mary Hubbard 00:04:18 Yeah, yeah, I was. I was wondering because, you know, by the time I had my, my first kid and they told us that he needed a vaccination for that. I was a little surprised because I, you know, why would I pay attention to that? I’m like, when did that come out? So it’s been around for a while. Your daughter is 33. Yeah.

Michelle Frechette 00:04:34 Yeah, she probably got it at 4 or 5 years old, maybe six. I don’t know for sure, but yeah, when she was young, before she was in school, and she never got chickenpox and doesn’t have the scars from, like, like I have from having had chickenpox.

Mary Hubbard 00:04:46 I have a permanent one right here. I have.

Michelle Frechette 00:04:49 One on the end of my nose. That turns red when I cry. So our turns white when the rest of my face turns red. Anyway, I go down rabbit holes all the time, but it’s a nice way to get to know people too.

Mary Hubbard 00:04:59 Random stories..

Michelle Frechette 00:05:01 Random stories. So as I said, WordPress isn’t new to you. So what position were you in at WordPress before you left to go to TikTok? I think it was, and then back here. So give us a little bit of what the last five or so years looked like for you work wise.

Mary Hubbard 00:05:18 Yeah. So I had actually started at Automattic, to grow the marketplace at WooCommerce. So I joined Automattic as the GM of the marketplace, and then worked at Woo for a few years building that out, and then moved over to WordPress.com and was the head of product and engineering for WordPress.com. And I worked for around two years, two and a half years before I had exited over to TikTok. So, yeah, it was one of those I like to follow emerging technology. So, like we were talking about before. I find I find tec so interesting and I, I’m very much that person that’s like, oh, I want to see this, or I want to try this, I want to do this.

Mary Hubbard 00:06:02 And so I just make very quick like movements on that behalf. And so TikTok was creating and launching TikTok shop in the United States. And so at the time I was living in London and, I was, actually, what’s it called, consulting for TikTok shop, because I, I have built out a lot of marketplaces in my career, from eBay Motors to Walmart for Walmart’s first open marketplace, Gazelle Assurance Marketplace. And so I’m very familiar with e-commerce and the development of marketplace, the tools, the ecosystem. And so I was essentially advising them because it was already live in London. And and, then this opportunity came and I was like, no, I’m good. I’m not going to do that. But we need to launch it. It’s going to be, you know, this is going to be the, the, the next the future of shopping. That’s really right. And so I took it and and jumped over to TikTok Shop and launched TikTok shop in the Americas. And so I was the head of, of governance and experience in brand product and engineering for TikTok Shop.

Mary Hubbard 00:07:09 It was a wild ride. It still is. It’s a, it’s amazing what they’re doing and building out. And so I’m excited for TikTok shopping. When I saw everything that was happening and ended up speaking with Matt and I had spoken to Matt multiple times through when I was at TikTok with, kind of bouncing ideas or again, talking about the future, what type of future technology is open source and things of how those were working. And I ended up speaking to Matt and he had he had said, hey, you know, we’re we’re looking at these things. This is what’s happening. Would you be willing to come back? And so that was kind of one thing led to another. It was very quick. and I ended up back at WordPress. So I’m excited to be here. Very excited to be here.

Michelle Frechette 00:07:51 So I don’t know whether to love you or hate you because I’ve spent some money on the TikTok Shop, I’m not gonna lie. But it is. It’s a very easy it’s an easy thing to do because it’s a very easy checkout. It’s everything works so well there.

Mary Hubbard 00:08:04 Well, I love that. Yes. Thank you. That’s, you know, when we first when it first launched, it was all about unintentional shopping and the idea of interconnectivity. Right. Because you do want you do feel a connection to these people. You are talking to them every single day. And you do want to understand what it is. But what I’ve always loved about the TikTok experience and the TikTok Shop experience is that you cannot pay to play. So if you think about any type of algorithm or any type of interaction, like if you were to work within like Instagram shorts or reels and you’re interacting in that, you could actually buy your way to the top, which is why you see so many specific celebrities, which is why celebrities have such a hard time coming onto the TikTok platform or the TikTok Shop platform, because it really is. You’re building a community, and that community feels, that you should, you know, you should try this. And, you know, we played a lot.

Mary Hubbard 00:08:54 I think the I was the fourth employee. We grew the team to like 350. Ultimately, it was like thousands. And so, like, watching the arch. And I’ve never been a part of a team that shipped so fast. Multiple teams shipping be continuously changing and changing and iterating. And so it’s very exciting team to be a part of because you can make very quick decisions. And so yeah, there’s a lot of fun. And if you I, if I, if I wasn’t in this, I actually have the first neon as a going away present. I got a neon TikTok Shop sign. I’m also a good, you know, TikTok shop. But yeah.

Michelle Frechette 00:09:32 If you send me a picture of it, I’ll include it in the show notes later.

Mary Hubbard 00:09:35 It’s all right. It’s okay. It’s just one of those things. Mary, what are we going to do with this? You gotta take it. So I was like, oh, I’ll take it for sure.

Michelle Frechette 00:09:41 Yeah, I have a place for that for sure.

Mary Hubbard 00:09:44 Yeah, it’s a little thing, you know. It’s the little thing. It’s the, things that you can look back on and laugh. I remember at eBay we had these diecast cars and, like, they were these eBay motors diecast cars. Like the exact replica of the e-bay motor NASCAR car. And so as we were building out parts center and building out the fitment capabilities, on the platform itself, it’s like the first PIM system, right? Legacy software. But it was just really cool to have, like, just to see, like how far technology’s come or how far the ideas have come or the products that you’ve built out, like the staples, it takes you back, you know.

Michelle Frechette 00:10:19 Yes, yes. I, I, I’ve always considered myself kind of an early adopter of, of technologies and, it was probably 1999, 2000 that I got for Christmas a Palm Pilot.

Mary Hubbard 00:10:36 Classic! Yes, I remember those. Yes.

Michelle Frechette 00:10:38 I wish I still had it. I totally wish I still had it. My goal is like I still have my first MacBook right is to deconstruct it and turn it into this, like this big art thing and hang it up. I probably never will get to it, but I think it would be cool if I could, like, just have a whole display of, like, the history of Michelle’s technology. There’s the BlackBerry, there’s the Razr flip phone and all of these different things.

Mary Hubbard 00:11:00 Right? Oh my God, the pink razors, the like, the like, I want to I wonder when we’re going to start flipping back to the like the technology that used to be like, what was it like 2000 between like 2010 before really iPhone gripped everybody. We had so many generations of phones, right? Like the slide up, the one with the full keyboard. And now you’re starting to see, people move back to the more monotone, like the less like like the less interactive things. I wonder what it’s going to look like.

Michelle Frechette 00:11:33 I do too.

Mary Hubbard 00:11:35 Yeah, I, I still have all of my original tech. So my mom, She started this thing when we were little. Like where we each each child has a trunk. And so you put in your trunk things that you want your children to have or for the rest of your life. And so in my trunk I have my first cell phone which was like this big like a brick. And you know like. And it was a, it was like a sister phone because she had a phone.

Michelle Frechette 00:12:05 I gotcha. It’s like, did Zach carry one of those on Saved by the Bell?

Mary Hubbard 00:12:11 Heck, yeah. Zach Morris. Yeah. In the morning. Right. I totally. Yeah. And I was explaining to my son recently that the phones used to be in the cars connected to the horn.

Michelle Frechette 00:12:24 Yeah. We called them car phones.

Mary Hubbard 00:12:26 Yeah. The car phones. And imagine a society today where, like, in the parking lot of Target. Honk, honk. Right. Because everyone would have it.

Michelle Frechette 00:12:35 Yeah. So funny. Oh my gosh.

Mary Hubbard 00:12:37 Times were different. Times were different in the 90s.

Michelle Frechette 00:12:40 They were, they were. And some of those things have been a hard sell for in the beginning. Right. Like you don’t need a cell phone. What do you need a cell phone for? Right. And now we’re putting cell phones in the hands of our ten year olds. Especially, like, I don’t know if we call them latchkey kids anymore. Like, I was an I was a latchkey kid back in the 80s. Right. But like my daughter, I was raising her alone at ten years old. I gave her a cell phone because she’d get home. And if she was locked out, she had no way to call me. You know, she had no way to get in touch with somebody. So, like, it was like, this is for emergency use only, right? Like, she only used it for emergencies. But.

Mary Hubbard 00:13:10 Yeah, my children are young. My my son is seven and almost eight, but he has a watch and he doesn’t wear it to school though I’d like him to, but he wears his watch. Anytime we go someplace public. He wears that watch. And it’s, it is safety. And, you know, when he calls, he’ll call me when he’s concerned. I have. He went to a birthday party and I was giving him the space. We were at Dave and Busters, and so I was with my daughter. I was with my daughter on the other side. And we were. I was entertaining my daughter and like, randomly, he’d be like, I’m just checking in. I’m just checking in. Right. So it’s like it is a it’s a security, you know, for them. And it’s good to know. And you know, people, people don’t know that number. So nobody can contact him. It’s not like it’s an iPhone. And and so I feel good there. And I have a GPS location I know.

Michelle Frechette 00:14:00 Yeah exactly.

Mary Hubbard 00:14:02 And then at Disney World I gave him 20 bucks and he’s like walking around. I’ll get that for you, sis. Like Apple cash. Okay. You want that donut? I spent, like, $7 on a donut, Harlow. You only ate the icing.

Michelle Frechette 00:14:19 I love it. Oh, that’s. He’s such a little grown up for seven years.

Mary Hubbard 00:14:23 Yeah, a little mature. My little babes, but. Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Frechette 00:14:27 So e-commerce is absolutely comes naturally to you in a lot of respects now. So I’m gonna kind of pivot a little bit because I actually talked to Beau and Tamara this morning from the Woo team about the new launch of the, the branding that happened today, but also talk to Beau. He joined us a little bit into it and gave us kind of a little bit of history and roadmap of what’s happening with Woo and WooCommerce. So exciting stuff going on there. Which brings me to the question of you are the Executive Director of WordPress. How hard is it not to just like, keep focusing on the new stuff that’s happening at WooCommerce?

Mary Hubbard 00:15:04 Yeah, I mean, I think that there’s extremely both extremely capable. I’ve worked with them for a very long time. And so it’s not more of a distraction. I, I enjoy. I think, like we were talking about before, I do enjoy technology. I enjoy what people are doing. I like to provide feedback if it’s it’s warranted or invited. And so it’s for me, I, I tend to stay away because I have very pointed feedback for e-commerce. So it’s like I like WooCommerce and there what they’re doing, how they’re focused on it. I cheer them on from the side. Provide some. Provide. I meet with Beau fairly regularly. and so I think that, that feedback’s a little bit more passive, because I focus on, I focus on that, that e-commerce, not individual e-com, but actual marketplace dynamics and how a marketplace works rather than like one off individual.

Michelle Frechette 00:16:00 Gotcha. Do you feel kind of like the mom that’s watching the kids, like, on stage at, like, grade school? And you’re like, I’m so proud of my babies. I was like.

Mary Hubbard 00:16:09 Yeah.

Michelle Frechette 00:16:10 Well, that’s how I feel. It’s Stellar every time. Like they launch something new. I’m like, I’m so proud of our team.

Mary Hubbard 00:16:15 Yeah, I do. I think, I don’t know, because it’s an entire ecosystem. Right. And like when you think about when you think about WooCommerce or WordPress, I, I love to see businesses emerge in general and be successful. And I do think like the future, the future and the growth, and that sustainability is very important. And so it actually behooves all of us to look at the gaps of certain products, because that could spark a new idea and an opportunity. But I’m happy and proud of the things that emerge. And it’s interesting because I’ll go out and this is my previous stint when I was at WordPress.com. I would talk a lot about WordPress, and I would talk a lot about my friends and my family, and it was just so interesting to hear, like certain stories around, oh, I built this. I have this website or hey, I built this.

Mary Hubbard 00:17:01 I, you know, I have a radio station for my band and we built it this way. And then I’ll go and I’ll look, oh, this is a WordPress site. And there’s you could be very. You should be proud of the fact that that somebody’s so far away from you is using tools that your team has, like ideating on and developed and, and now all the way down the road, somebody has launched a website and used that. Right. Or use that theme or use these plugins. It’s just it’s cool. It’s really cool. to be part of it, I like to say it’s like, What’s great about the entire ecosystem is your fingertips. Like, you can touch so much.

Michelle Frechette 00:17:37 Oh, yeah. For sure.

Mary Hubbard 00:17:39 Yeah, right. And even when you like in the forums, like when you’re supporting people, like when you’re, you know, iterating on a, on a plugin or an extension, especially within WooCommerce, how these extensions are working and interacting. Yeah. It’s just cool. So I get excited about that. And I try not to take. But yeah.

Michelle Frechette 00:17:58 One of my favorite websites is Built With. Because like, I’ll see like I’ll see something on TikTok and they’re like a nonprofit or they’re talking about their business or something. First thing I do is like, go to Build With and see if it’s is it WordPress? And if it’s a nonprofit, I’m like, are they using GiveWP? Because that was the first product I worked on. And I’m like, if they’re not, if it’s not WordPress, like, oh, whatever. If it’s if they’re using like just let’s say just a PayPal button, I’m like, do I dare reach out and say, hey, I have a better solution for you?

Mary Hubbard 00:18:24 Well, yeah. It’s like I’m just like an anonymous email over. Here’s my question for you. Why go straight to Built With. Have you not worked with like AI can you start to just have a, like, ChatGPT like a persona within ChatGPT and ask.

Michelle Frechette 00:18:38 Oh, I haven’t got that far yet. I need somebody to teach you how to do all those things. I’m like, I’ve been using Built With for so long, it doesn’t occur to me to use AI for anything, but I’m on an AI panel in Asia, so I’m going to be learning a lot, ramping up on a lot of these things in the next week and a half, to learn a lot of those things. And I have been learning a lot, but I haven’t done the whole persona and everything yet. I don’t know that it knows who I am quite yet, and I’m I’m okay with the relationship being a first date still. So yeah, we’ll see how it goes.

Mary Hubbard 00:19:06 I’m happy to do it. I’m testing a lot of different types of AI. I’m testing a lot of it. I’m writing different things, to get it to be more intelligent and more interaction with me. I, I’ve, I’m really liking Granola. I’m liking Granola a lot. I’ve worked and built some templates with that. So I’m, I’m, I joined that and I found that, like, I’m treating I’m treating AI as more of, like an educational assistant and my end goal is I want to see if I can actually create a true educational bot for my kids.

Michelle Frechette 00:19:35 Oh, cool. That’d be cool.

Mary Hubbard 00:19:37 Like, yeah, like, think about it as, like an AI tutor. Almost. So when you’re looking at something and like, how can they get more intelligent and how can you learn and how can they learn from it. Yeah. Because that’s the future. Like they’re going to be, they’re going to be treating AI very differently than we are as we’re growing it. but I was reflecting on this recently because I was having a conversation with my sister in law. And it’s interesting because there’s an argument around why certain certain generations, are so successful within technology. And the biggest part of it is because if you look at if you look at our generation, right, we’ve seen the evolution of technology. Like we were just talking about phones. We’ve seen the change in tech. But other generations like Gen Z have just seen like 16 iterations of the iPhone.

Michelle Frechette 00:20:24 Right.

Mary Hubbard 00:20:24 And when you think about innovation and different formats, and it’s actually the adaptability to adaptability to technology, which makes certain folks so successful there is because they’re learning and adapting to it rather than just using it.

Mary Hubbard 00:20:35 Really reflecting on that as as how I can use AI effectively for my own children and how they will use it as they age up. Right. Because they just it’s iPad computer, my my kid code like Roblox. He creates his own Roblox. That’s amazing. It’s just a real I don’t know. Something to really chew on for a while.

Michelle Frechette 00:21:00 I, I have often thought about the fact that people who’ve come into WordPress since 2018 didn’t have the whole, oh, I’ve gotta use Gutenberg and the block editor and what’s that like? I used to teach WordPress until the block editor came out, and then I was like, well, I have to learn this before I can teach it. And then I got so busy with other things that I’ve never taught it, actually. I should sometimes just so that I like, make sure I know everything. I mean, I use it constantly. I love the block editor. Right. our we have a have a theme Kadence and we use it’s a block.

Michelle Frechette 00:21:29 It’s uses block. So I’m using that constantly. But I never thought about like just, oh, let’s just start another class and teach people how to do that. But to have that kind of thing be your native, you know, your starting block, if you will.. It’s like, how cool is that? Like, they didn’t have to. There was such hills dug in and I’m never going to use it. And people were just so against it. I’m like, just learn it. Like like when when Facebook changes its layout and people are like, I hate the new Facebook. Like I don’t remember what the old Facebook looked like. I’ve used it for so many years. I’ve been through so many iterations. Okay, that’s what it looks like now, right? But it’s interesting.

Mary Hubbard 00:22:00 Now you bounced into it and it’s like all the way down to Common Core. Think about Common Core and what children are learning math. And the argument is that of course, well, the parents can’t assist today, but it’s actually easier for children to understand.

Mary Hubbard 00:22:14 And once those generations come up, you actually see a higher literacy rate. When you enter into a technology and the ease of use is high. I remember these conversations around Mac. Remember the. Oh yeah. Like years ago, 20 something years ago, we were talking about Apple and like, people were moving from, like, PC over to Mac and like how difficult it was, but it actually if you put it in front of a first time user, the it’s so, so the usability, the UI on it is so much better. But people were just hard found.

Michelle Frechette 00:22:44 Yeah, It’s it is. And the older you get the harder it is to change sometimes. And so I’ve tried to you know, I’m going to be 57 this year and I’ve tried to make it my mantra not to resist change, but to learn it and embrace it, because I don’t want to be left in the dust, quite honestly. Right? Like I was helping my mother learn how to use her new iPhone the other day, and it was like pulling.

Michelle Frechette 00:23:05 I wanted to pull my hair out because I was so frustrated, but I had to take a beat, take a breath. She’s a lot older than you. It’s taking her a while to learn these things, and so just having patience with people, which isn’t always easy when it’s your mom. But yes. Understandable.

Mary Hubbard 00:23:19 Are you are you the, Are you the, you have to do this. Go ahead. Go ahead. Move. Just let me do it. Or are you the person that sits back and says, hey, let me. Let me show you what type?

Michelle Frechette 00:23:32 So I first say, let me show you how to do it. And then we’re going to back up and do the steps so that you have an idea of beginning to end, what it will look like. And then I’m going to walk you through step by step. If you make a mistake. I’m going to take you back a step. And we’re going to start from there again. It doesn’t mean I’m not inside my head going, oh my god, just do the next step!

Michelle Frechette 00:23:51 But I try to have patience. Yeah, I have people that have patience with me when I don’t understand something. So and I’m not a developer. So when people like are developers and they’re trying to teach you something really quick and I’m like, but I don’t, I don’t, I don’t. Can you just give me the code, you know, kind of thing. Right? I just, I just want to implement the code. I just need the CSS and I don’t have to understand it, you know, kind of thing.

Mary Hubbard 00:24:11 I do it’s it’s so true. It’s like you have to remember that people are learning and it’s like, well, hold on, I’m trying to learn. I’m not trying to like fast forward through it. And that’s like there’s two different use cases. No, just give it to me. I need to do it versus I’m trying to actually understand.. both take a very different level of patience for yourself and the teaching. Right?

Michelle Frechette 00:24:32 Right. Yeah. When I’m when I’m trying to learn something or accomplish something, I’ll say, do you think I’ll need to know this again? If I’m never going to need to know this again, can you just give me the the last what do I need? If I’m going to need to do this again, will you teach me how to do it so I won’t have to keep bothering you kind of thing. But, I mean, that’s is easier said than than I’m not a perfect person. And so. So if you have not had that experience with me, whoever’s listening, I apologize. I, you know.

Mary Hubbard 00:24:57 I came in a blanket apology. I’m sorry. No. I’m sorry, I’m sorry.

Michelle Frechette 00:25:03 I have what they call feet of clay. I make a lot of mistakes in my life, but I’m kind of generous and very apologetic afterwards.

Mary Hubbard 00:25:11 You gotta. You gotta be right. I think, I always talk about. I talk about grace. I just please provide me the grace I don’t know and I don’t understand. Please provide me the grace. I think somewhere along the way, a lot of people have forgotten that. Or maybe just the individualism of us all. Right. Like, oh, no, I can do it. I can do it. And you’re like, no, actually, we need a lot of support. Please provide me grace.

Michelle Frechette 00:25:34 And that we’re all different. We all learn differently. Right. And so you may be somebody. The auditory processing. I may need to read it. I may need to see it a few times. I love, YouTube when people demonstrate something on YouTube and I can rewind and walk through it again, that kind of stuff.

Mary Hubbard 00:25:49 The question is, is are you are you the person who goes and tries to self discover an answer before you call somebody? It’s like one of those things where like, I’m not going to call all email or oh, let me, let me look it up. Let me look it up before you call. Or do you just pick up the phone and call?

Michelle Frechette 00:26:04 It really depends on how quickly I need to resolve it. If it’s something that has a little bit of time, I’m going to try to figure it out myself otherwise. So I don’t know if you’ve met Mark Westguard yet. He owns WS Form. He is, in my opinion, like the best developer ever because he and I text constantly. He’s like one of my besties in WordPress. And I’ll be like, how do I do this? And he’ll send me the link to his documentation. I’ll be like, I don’t want to read, just tell me how to do it.

Mary Hubbard 00:26:33 You just want to just drop in. Just drop in on my computer. Please. Just take it over.

Michelle Frechette 00:26:38 And he’ll be like, what’s your Zoom link? And I’ll be like, thank you.

Mary Hubbard 00:26:40 So appreciate.

Michelle Frechette 00:26:42 You. Or give me a look. Give me a login. You know, that kind of thing? Yeah. For sure. It’s good to have all those kinds of people in our world for sure. For sure.

Mary Hubbard 00:26:51 Yes, yes.

Michelle Frechette 00:26:52 So, we’ve talked about a million different things. What do you like. So you’ve been three months in. What are you happiest about so far? I’ve got the three part question. What are you happiest about so far? What are you most excited about? What has accomplished in the first three months? What are you most looking forward to within the next year? And what do you see as like a road bump for yourself? Like something where you have a little bit more to learn before you feel really confident about it?

Mary Hubbard 00:27:18 Okay.L et me let me wind back. What the first.

Michelle Frechette 00:27:23 The first one is like for your first three months. Like, what’s your proudest accomplishment do you have is about what is the team done that just makes you happy from your first three months?

Mary Hubbard 00:27:31 You know, I’m I’m learning a lot, right? Like, being in the community is different than working with the community. And so I’m learning a lot. and so I think the people have been very supportive. And so I think that, there’s a lot of a lot that’s happening around us. And I appreciate it. I’m grateful that that, there are there are folks that are very focused and pushing through, and continuing to move the project forward. And I think that that that’s a proud moment for the community, not for me personally, but, I’m, I’m happy and I can see it. And I think that there are strong community contributors and strong community people in here that have really stepped up and led and continue to. And, there’s good conversations that are happening, around and amongst the noise.

Mary Hubbard 00:28:23 And I think that that is something that the individuals, you know, the individuals that are, taking this upon themselves. Right? Like looking at this next release. Yeah. It should be very proud. I mean, this is it’s an accomplishment. It’s a it’s fantastic. And I and I think that that’s great. And I have a, immediately, like, there’s a lot of gaps in my understanding of just how the community dynamics work. And there are certain folks that have reached out. You included. Included. You know, there’s I have an advisory board within the community, and, I’m speaking to them often, and they’ve been so supportive and helpful, and I’m proud that that and I’m happy. I think that’s a big, a big thing because they continuously point me in the direction to go and learn, or go see. And so that’s been great.

Michelle Frechette 00:29:08 I love that. So within the next year, what are you excited about?

Mary Hubbard 00:29:12 I’m really excited about this. The educational initiatives that we’re doing. I want to double down on that. There are, I’ve been looking at it. I do think that the next generation and we were just talking about this, I think, like with with children and the gaps between what we’re doing. How can we make WordPress fun? How can we bring more people in? And how can we educate? How can we educate wide. And those are the initiatives that I have excited about. We spoke a little bit about some of the wins at State of the Word. I want to go deeper into this area. There’s there are already. There’s already a lot of people in this space, and I think we could either amplify that and a very healthy way that is alongside them and then at the same time, do it internally within our community to continue to branch out. And I think that that would be great. And so I’m very excited about that. and I do want to see the growth of the community. I want to see the growth of, of, what we’re doing, why we’re doing it. And our charter. And our charter. Right. Like our mission. And so I’m excited to see these things come out over the next couple of months.

Michelle Frechette 00:30:20 Nice. And what do you see as your biggest learning hurdle or. I don’t want to say hurdle. It’s like, I don’t want to say there’s a road bump or a wall in front of you. But what do you see as your biggest opportunity to learn? To really get you more deeply into your job. And then over the next year.

Mary Hubbard 00:30:35 People, people, people in community. There are so many people who are brilliant, deeply involved, and they have their own space in the project, and it’s very wide. And so as I go through things, right as I go through things or people contact me, I have no context as to what they’re doing, why they’re doing it. And so I do need to catch up and get more involved. And so over the next couple of months, I’ll be at these events. I’ll be there to try to meet more people and talk to them and understand.

Mary Hubbard 00:31:07 But to try to drive this project forward, I think that that’s really important. For example, like, you know, I’m given something or I’m asked something. But I don’t have access or I haven’t taken the training or I need to do this, or I need to do that first. Right? And so I’m trying to learn and understand the process that currently exists. And then immediately I see a whole bunch of problems with these processes that probably need to be addressed and fixed. Right. And so like all all of them, all of that is challenging, because of the situation around like, like who, who, who’s working on what? Like who’s working on what, who has been working for quite some time, hasn’t been working for quite some time. And what does this mean. And so that has been a challenge for me. On the bright side. Like, like I, I talked to you before, I think earlier. I don’t know if it was during this, but people have been very kind. And so they’re very willing to help me or direct me somewhere. and so that’s been great.

Michelle Frechette 00:32:07 I love that. I’m excited about things. When you and I met, I don’t know, a month or two ago. It might have even been before the holidays. It’s been a weird, like, quarter. So, shall we say, it correct me if I’m wrong, but I think you said something along the lines of like, you’re like a worker, you’re a heads down person, and you haven’t necessarily enjoyed the spotlight on you a lot in the past, but this year that’s going to be changing a lot for you. You’re a keynote at Press Conf. I can’t remember the other, is it, Cloud Fest that you’re speaking?

Mary Hubbard 00:32:37 Not a keynote, just a fireside chat.

Michelle Frechette 00:32:39 Fireside.

Michelle Frechette 00:32:42 Keynotes are coming. I’m just. Keynotes are coming. But but there’s a lot of you’re going to be on the stage a lot more in this current role than you probably have been in the past, although I don’t know what your history has been. How are you adjusting to that?

Mary Hubbard 00:32:56 I do not enjoy it. So I don’t know if I’ll do it. I think that, there are certain things that, I am very comfortable one on one and in small crowds and just having a conversation. I am uncomfortable speaking in front of large audiences to tell or to do something. And it’s not that I’m I just my personality type is more conversational and I’m very off, like, I’m off the cuff and I get very passionate and I hyper fixate. So if I hyper fixate, you get me going on on a subject, I’m like, oh, I’m going to talk about this, you know? And I have a lot of passion. And so I’m better with that because I enjoy feedback loops and conversations, so. I enjoy more, for my entire career, I’ve always said, I don’t know if you’re a Game of Thrones fan?

Michelle Frechette 00:33:44 I binge watched the entire thing before the final season that I could catch anybody else. Yeah.

Mary Hubbard 00:33:49 We all like, but like I, I’m very much a like I like to work through other people. So I think it’s more important for the growth of the team around you. For my own personal development, my personal growth, it’s more of a team dynamic where I can I have strengths and weaknesses. Other people have strengths and weaknesses and we can work together through that. And so it’s a very much a, a like one on one conversation or a group setting. And we, we really think through it, and push things out. And so because of that I often refer to that like I’m always the second because I can push people up. And I’ve always been that way. And I think that, even, even in lead positions or positions like that are very visible. I can make them my own. Like you’ve noticed, I’m not continuing the podcast. I’m uncomfortable in that regard, and I hope that when I learn more and understand more, that I could start something that would be just as communicative and just as, like, I think, more transparent and in my own format. That can make it comfortable.

Mary Hubbard 00:34:55 But because of that, I just don’t like that type of attention. I’m very accessible. I think that, like you would know if people reach me. I mean, you text me this morning, right? Like, I’m very approachable and I I’d love to talk to folks. I just don’t, I don’t, I don’t see myself as the, that person. I see other people as that that person. Yeah. And I, I just like I like building stuff. I like building products, I like, I like shipping things. I like navigating through complex problems. And I really do think that, like, getting the team around you strong and comfortable is better. Is better than trying to lead top down or, trying to lead. Because you do need you do need, you need the group. You need the people.

Michelle Frechette 00:35:44 Absolutely. And in my roles as leaders in the past, and, and in my current role, I don’t have any direct reports as far as at Stellar WP, but wherever I’ve worked and I’ve had a leadership role, my mantra has always been to take the criticism, but to pass on the credit to my team.

Michelle Frechette 00:36:03 And I think that that kind of kind of speaks to what you’re talking about, too. Like you’re building people up to do their jobs and do them well. But if the criticism comes towards me, I’m going to take it. I’m not going to say, oh, well, that was Susie Smith over here. She really doesn’t know what she’s doing. That’s not how a good leader works, so.

Mary Hubbard 00:36:19 I agree. There’s like, Yeah, I’ve, I’ve really learned that throughout. Right. Like, it’s like foundations. Probably. People have a foundation in Agile, right? Agile came. We all learned Agile. We learned these like these actually these actual structures to work within it. And so I lean back on that often where it’s like we can make quick decisions. We might be wrong, but we can make them quick and we can move forward. And I will take the heat, I will take the heat. And obviously I am taking the heat on a lot of things. But, you know, it is what it is. And yeah. WordPress will continue to move forward because we have a great community.

Michelle Frechette 00:36:52 We do. Finally, I will say to you that our first meeting, I just like I want to be her friend because you are just such a friendly, wonderful person to have conversations with. And then you reached out to me on a couple of weeks ago, when I decided to go ahead and take on the role of co-release coordinator for 6.8, and you reached out and were like, hey, I saw your name on the list. If there’s anything you need, let me know. And I was like, that was a really nice touch. I felt seen and I felt supported, and I just wanted to say thank you for being the person that does that for team members.

Mary Hubbard 00:37:22 Oh, absolutely. It goes back to what it’s just the we need it. We’re together. I think that that’s the thing. Like the group, this is a group thing. And I do like to be helpful, but I’m very quick to be like, I don’t know. Let me figure that one out.

Michelle Frechette 00:37:38 I don’t know that I’ll get an answer for you is how I always answer yes.

Mary Hubbard 00:37:43 But I think I think like one of the principles that I have of, of leadership in general is like, I, I thrive in context. Like I must understand why we’re doing something. And I believe that if we share the context, even if it’s harsh or like unrealistic, like whatever it is, like where the context of these decisions coming from, and what is the ultimate vision it makes doing our day to day job so much easier because I can make quicker decisions I can understand, and though I might not agree with certain things, I can understand it and then I can prepare myself for how to navigate it. And I think a lot of that is how we navigate through building an educational team, growing our community, and what we’re doing for the future of open source. When open source is front of everything today, just conversations in public and how we’re talking to one another and talking about the future of it. Context is going to be key. Where’s Michelle coming from with this?

Michelle Frechette 00:38:36 Why is she asking that?

Mary Hubbard 00:38:39 It matters. And I think and I always promote this too. And deep, deep down it’s like when context is missing or you don’t understand. Reach out, ask. And if you can’t get ahold of somebody, get ahold of me. I’m very responsive. I’m the world’s best lurker. That’s I am here, I am learning, I’m reading, I am answering. But I am available. So people do need to speak with me. Please do. Please do.

Michelle Frechette 00:39:05 Awesome. So. Okay, I’m going to end with two easy questions. At least I think they’re easy. The first one is what do you do with your free time? Do you have any hobbies? Like I collect Legos. I build Legos. I’m a nature photographer. What do you do?

Mary Hubbard 00:39:18 so I’m the queen of useless projects.

Michelle Frechette: Love it.

Mary Hubbard: So, like, over this last weekend, my seven year old, has a loft bed with a fire pole, and I put a rock climbing wall to the right of it, and then a, like, a swinging hammock chair and.

Michelle Frechette 00:39:38 Oh, fun.

Mary Hubbard 00:39:39 What is it? Monkey bars. And like, I’m the queen of useless projects. And that’s what I love to do. And if it’s night and I’m detoxing, I’m reading. It’s the majority of time I’m reading.

Michelle Frechette 00:39:51 For pleasure?Or you’re reading, like, self-help and tech books.

Mary Hubbard 00:39:54 So I don’t read like, I rarely read fiction. Most of it. Most of it is non-fiction. And, I, like we were talking before. I’m very into quantum mechanics and quantum physics, so a lot of it. And then I recently read more stuff on AI.

Michelle Frechette 00:40:12 So light reading.

Mary Hubbard 00:40:14 Yeah. So like and it is, it’s like one of those things where, you know, you got, you got your Kindle, you know, you’re chilling and why not?

Michelle Frechette 00:40:24 Your nerd comes out. It’s it’s okay. And my very last question is, how do you take your coffee?

Mary Hubbard 00:40:30 Ooh. So if I’m ordering, if I’m just my everyday morning coffee is black coffee. If I’m, like, at a coffee shop, I’m doing a soy caramel macchiato. Oh, don’t we all know. So, like, that’s not coffee. You know, but that’s like. Dude, they’re so good. Yeah.

Michelle Frechette 00:40:51 I’m a cream of sugar girly. And I recently bought a DeLonghi. three actually sits right here next to my desk so I can make my coffee in the morning. Espresso machine. It grinds the beans per cup, like all that stuff and like coffee. Yeah, I and I only started drinking coffee at 48. I did not even like coffee until I was in my late 40s. But now I like steamed milk and I add like caramel and all of those things, and make my own fru-fru coffees at home. And I will fight anybody that says it’s not coffee. So don’t say it’s not coffee.

Mary Hubbard 00:41:16 No, no, no, I meant like when you go in you order. Yeah.

Michelle Frechette 00:41:19 I mean I do those too.

Mary Hubbard 00:41:21 Yeah. We have the original Nespresso. And like during Covid I did the whole, like I bought heavy whipping cream and had my, my own creamer. Like, not creamer like, like to make whipped cream. And so in the afternoon I would get like a decaf nespresso and then like do my own cream. And it was great because I don’t, I don’t care for sweets like, I don’t like. I’m more of like a savory, salty person. So anything sugary is like overwhelming. Starbucks and Woods coffee. It’s a lot of sugar.

Michelle Frechette 00:41:53 Oh, I know, I like both. I like to eat my pretzels with my sugary coffee. So. Anyway. Well, I want to thank you so much for taking some time to meet with me today and let people get to know a little bit more of who you are as a person, which is exactly what my goal was. So I look forward to seeing you at some future events coming up. Actually, relatively quickly. I’ll see you in Tempe, Arizona, and then for sure, like US. And I’m hoping at Europe and things like that. I’ll see you there too.

Mary HUbbard: Are you going to Cloud Fest?

Michelle Frechette: But, I’m not. It’s a little far to a lot of travel. Maybe next year. I keep saying maybe next year. Maybe next year. One of these days, that will be true. But not. But not this year. So. But, but soon for sure. but I look forward to seeing you there.

Mery Hubbard: Have a geta time.

Michelle Frechette: Yeah. You too. And I’ll see you on Slack for sure. And I promise not to text you all the funny memes that I find, but maybe the cat ones once in a while.

Mary Hubbard 00:42:44 Maybe. We’ll see. I’m a huge meme person.

Michelle Frechette 00:42:46 So. Okay, well, feel free to send me some as well.

Mary Hubbard 00:42:50 Alreight, thank you.

Michelle Frechette 00:42:51 Thank you. We’ll see everybody else on the next episode of Cacheing Up.