People don’t realize how long ago “long ago” wasn’t. We’re not talking about two, three, four hundred years ago. My family always stressed working somewhere your employer respects you, because it wasn’t that long ago they didn’t have a choice.

Nyasha Green

We’re rebooting Post Status Excerpt as a weekly chat between Nyasha Green and Dan Knauss (and guests—please join us!) about a few of the active topics and discussions in the WordPress community that we feel are most important. Big thanks to David Bisset in his former role as host and curator here, and also to our intern and post-production engineer, Olivia Bisset.

This week we’re talking about pay transparency. Ny relates some personal experiences where an employer did not disclose pay or how employees were selected for raises. This leads us into a discussion of pay transparency in the hiring process — how it matters to everyone but especially job seekers who are black, indigenous, or other people of color. (Ny has written about this before, and Piccia Neri has been investigating the topic lately.) We also talk about how a lack of transparency can seem to emphasize an employer’s distrust and an employee’s disadvantaged position — and the effect that can have on workplace culture.

Hey #techtwitter & #WordPress Twitter & #womenintech, there's still time to vote in this poll!

No salary range in job adverts: yay or nay? https://t.co/p1nRvnGGCB

— Piccia Neri (@Piccia) August 11, 2022

Next, we talk about our own family histories which are touched — in living memory in Ny’s case — by slavery and colonialism where work and dignity were extracted from some people by others with the power take their labor without compensation. Ny’s great grandfather was born a slave in South Carolina in 1858 and lived until 1963. Dan’s ancestors include German settlers in North Carolina who abandoned their earlier beliefs against slavery and began to practice it in the late 1700s. In the Americas and beyond, the past is much closer than we often assume, especially for BIPOC people. History only “bends toward justice” if people choose to bend it that way. It can also go the other way.

Finally, we close with how Allie Nimmons experienced a surprising level of hostility to a survey she presented to the WordPress community about the ways we contribute to the project and how we feel about it. There’s the community we have now — and the community we need to become. How do we get there? What are the barriers? How can you help?

🔗 Mentioned in the Show

• Piccia Neri started a discussion in Post Status Slack and on Twitter with a poll about job listings without salary ranges.
• Nyasha wrote an article for MasterWP, “Put your money where your mouth is: Why we need pay transparency in tech.”
• Nyasha’s great grandfather, Jeff Doby was one of the Last Survivors of American Slavery.
• Historical trauma is carried across the generations in our genetics, according to researchers like Bessel van der Kolk, the author of books like The Body Keeps the Score.
• Allie Nimmons shared this contributor survey on Twitter and commented later on some of the hostile responses she got to the survey itself.

👋 Your Hosts

• Nyasha Green, Editorial Director at MasterWP (Twitter)
• Dan Knauss, Editor for Post Status (Twitter)

Every week Post Status Excerpt will bring you a conversation about important news and issues in the WordPress community and business ecosystem. 🎙️

You can listen to past episodes of The Excerpt, browse all our podcasts, and don’t forget to subscribe on Spotify, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, iTunes, Castro, YouTube, Stitcher, Player.fm, Pocket Casts, Simplecast, or by RSS. 🎧

Transcript

Dan Knauss: [00:00:00] Hey Ny

Nyasha Green: Hey Dan, how are you?

Dan Knauss: All right. Pretty good. Good to see you again. so what’s on your mind in world of WordPress this week.

Nyasha Green: Pay transparency. Yeah.

Dan Knauss: Okay. Me too. Yeah. So peach and Mary, um, who’s, uh, I think pretty well known and post status member, um, proposed this some time ago and I’ve been, you know, kind of encouraging and helping along towards an article.

Um, we know that we do job listings and there’s always, there are things around. Time zones and where people specify they want people to be from or language that sometimes need a little nudging about [00:01:00] appropriateness, um, for being inclusive, but probably the single most vexing thing to people is, um, a reasonable pay for positions in a field that tends to be.

Somewhat underpaid where we want to bring that up. Um, but you know, as in most job listings, LinkedIn, anywhere, a lot of employers just won’t pay post any salary at all. And there may be kind of vagueness about, is this a senior position entry level? And yeah, what’s the compensation. Some companies are really awesome about it.

Um, but some are vague to just don’t don’t mention it. Mm-hmm so, um, So she was surveying. Yeah. What did you think of her, her poll and the discussion that happened on Twitter?

Nyasha Green: I thought it was really good. Um, I actually wrote, um, for master WP a little while ago about pay [00:02:00] transparency and how more companies need to just post their salaries.

And, um, of course it gets pushed back, not my article, but that idea gets pushed back from companies, especially in places like South Carolina where, you know, They really do want to discriminate and pay and not care about it. Um, but I thought it was excellent and I think more companies should do it. Also.

I wanna point out that Colorado already has a state law that does this. And, um, one interesting thing about that is so many companies have been major companies like Southwest airlines have been trying to, can I name. Oh, yeah. Okay. they, um, you know, they’re one of the people to fight against it and the companies are like trying to like take the jobs out of Colorado.

Um, I think it was Southwest. Let me not slander Southwest. And it’s not them. I’m gonna double check

Dan Knauss: because they’re so embarrassed about their salary. They don’t wanna have to post it. I mean, you’ll leave the state cuz of that.

Nyasha Green: Like I feel like, but that, and also they want to pay people differently. [00:03:00] Like yeah.

Dan Knauss: So they don’t wanna be seen doing it.

Nyasha Green: Yeah. Like they know it’s wrong. So like they know it’s wrong. They know it’s not the right thing to do, but they’re still going to do it. And it’s just come on, man. It’s 2022. But like we were talking about, we’re not that removed from first of all. Well, a lot of discrimination still happens today.

That’s undeniable, but we’re not that removed from legalized discrimination. Mm-hmm . Yeah. And I think a lot of companies, you know, we don’t have a federal law to make you post, um, your salaries, but we need to one, um, two, a lot of companies don’t know how much. Better. It makes them look, if they go ahead and do that, just jump ahead of the curve and have those salaries up there.

So people know like we’re getting paid, what we’re worth one. We’re not wasting our time with the interview. We don’t want the pay and we’re not being discriminated against by color, race, [00:04:00] gender, sexuality, things like that. Yeah, absolutely.

Dan Knauss: So I think, um, it’s gonna be interesting to see how, how PT develops that, how we pull that article together.

Maybe I’ll, I’ll have to get, get you in on that too, for some feedback, or maybe some, some quotes too. Uh, have you had experiences directly with where you applied for, for something not quite knowing what the range was cause they didn’t tell you or do you have personal rule about like, I’m not gonna look at that.

Nyasha Green: Oh, yeah. Um, so living in South Carolina, almost most of my life, um, it’s a state that doesn’t have a lot of, um, protection for employees, a very anti-union state. Um, I remember, um, working in college for a, I’m not gonna name, drop them. Um, I don’t want them to get the attention, um, working for a company where I made food and delivered it.

And, um, they told us when we were first hired, they were like, you [00:05:00] know, We’re open about this and I’m like, oh, it’s gonna be something positive. And I’m like, what are you hoping about? Well, uh, raises are given at the discretion of managers. So, you know, mm we’re just gonna let you know. I’m like, why were you so excited to tell me that, that, that sucks.

So if you don’t like me, I don’t get a raise. Yep. But they were like, well, at least we told you, we didn’t just like do it like that. Doesn’t make it better, but they thought it made it better. And, um, I worked at that job for a little while and. Uh, personal story. So I, I don’t, I haven’t told the story a lot.

I think publicly, um, our manager was very sweet, very sweet guy and, um, very personable. I had no issues with him and I remember one day he asked if I wanted to come to his house and like, just hang out and like, I didn’t think anything of it, but I was busy. I wasn’t gonna do it. like, I was like 20 at a time.

I didn’t really care. I was like, um, oh no, I’m I’m busy. And he was like, oh, okay. Like, I thought it was like a simple conversation. He was like, okay. You know, no worries. And I guess a couple people had, they went and hung out with him one on one. [00:06:00] And I noticed in the next couple of weeks, it was just like a complete personality change.

He just like made little side comments about working with me. Um, like I said, oh, you’re on the line with Naisha today. Ugh. Okay. I guess. Nice, you know, I’m joking. And I’m like, what? And I didn’t think of it at the time. I was just like, whatever, I’m in college, like I’m taking like four, like 20 credits and I’m doing the shop.

Part-time, I’m not gonna think about it. But, um, I remember like in the next few weeks, like people who were getting hired on after me, cuz I help open the store. Um, they had raises. They got their 25 cents, which was a big deal at the time, I guess. And, um, a couple of them that I trained, they became like managers and supervisors.

And I was sitting there with my $7 and doing all this work for nothing. And when I quit that job, you know, some of the guys were telling me, cuz it was mostly a, a guy job that they hired and then they rarely hire people of color. Um, they were like, you know, you really should have, uh, been nicer to. So and so, and I was like, [00:07:00] they were like, yeah, we used to hang out and do all the stuff that cover in.

You never wanted to do it. Yeah. What. . I was like, that guy asked me one time when I first started to come to this house. I said, no, and that’s why y’all wouldn’t pay me or promote me. Yeah. So I was like, you know, I was done with that company. I, I don’t even eat their food to this day. Um, and they’re not doing well as a company either, which is great.

Uh, I shouldn’t say that, but it’s great to me now. but, um, I just, that was like the first time as an adult. Cause I was 20 or 21, um, that something was so blatantly. That blatantly happened. And it was like, I didn’t even think until later on I’m like, what if he, like, would’ve tried to like touch me or something like, like, I, I didn’t even think of that at the time.

It was just a simple, like, I’m busy, I’m in college, I’m doing all this stuff. Like, dude, we can hang out another time. And it was like, after that, there was this just whole narrative of she’s mean she doesn’t wanna do this, deny her money. So I think at a company where there would’ve been paid transparency, Where you didn’t rely on [00:08:00] being favored by the boss?

Um, things like that, that I would’ve been paid what I was due, which probably still, it was 25 cents more. It wasn’t, I still think I was worth more than that, but I would’ve been promoted. I wouldn’t trained my, you know, replacements in, you know, superiors. Um, so that’s, I always think about that story when I think about pay transparency because.

Like I was very young and naive and I was, I was naive for a long time and it’s like, how do we protect other people from that? Not just women, cuz it happens to men, but mostly women. How, how do we protect people of color from that? Like how do we stop that from happening? And I think pay transparency is the first step.

Dan Knauss: Yeah. I’m, I’m really, um, impressed and pleased that Colorado took that step. And that’s, that’s interesting how. Impacts distributed companies with people working remotely employers there, like, like yours, like Rob mm-hmm consulting, um, based [00:09:00] in, in, in Colorado, but teams all over the place. Um, so you’re kind of benefiting from Colorado is progressive in South Carolina, despite South Carolina.

Oh, nice. This is, this is something we can do in distributed companies to change cultures, to make. Where we see, you know, kinda gross inequities. Um, but yeah. What do you, what do you think, um, what do you think it does to for, I, I think, I think a lot of employers have the great intentions and I’d stick up for ’em.

Um, you know, there’s reason. There’s plenty of feedback and reasons for why, why we, we want to have this conversation later, or it’s, it’s a variable thing, or we don’t wanna scare people off who we’d like to get in the role by, um, you know, that’s kind of a feed, but who’s time are you, you wasting here [00:10:00] potentially, but yeah, they want to cast the net maybe widely, but there’s two sides to that.

Um, if they really value building. A positive, collegial, collaborative environment that makes their people better as they grow there and is inclusive. Um, what does it do potentially? To start off with this kind of shell game or, you know, what’s the three card Monty kinda game of how much would you would require her to be paid for this?

How much do you think you’re worth? Which is, um, some personalities and some people in certain experiences and some people on a depressing day. I mean, that’s a hard, you’re just not gonna represent yourself. Well, and you don’t have like an advocate at your arm to do this and. What do you, you know, you can tell what I, I think about it, but what, [00:11:00] what are your, what are your thoughts for the long term impact on that company culture?

If you start off with oh, degree of non-transparency and, and suspicion, or trying to leverage the power, you have to employer side advantage, um, over the employee, um, .

Nyasha Green: A lot of people probably won’t agree with me because this is the status quo, but the world is changing. If companies continue to do that, these mind games, they won’t have a company you’re losing good talent because you want to play these mind games.

You want to, I’m the guy in, not this, I’m the person in power. I don’t want to, um, say it’s only guys that do it, cuz it’s not only guys, but I’m the person in power. Let’s see what let’s see if I can, uh, how many tricks I can get out of them. before I can get, you know, them in. And then to me, it sets the stage for how it’s going to be working at [00:12:00] this company.

So I’m gonna apply into this job with all these mind games and tricks, and I’m jumping through hoops and I have to make sure it’s not a joke when he says this or that. And they say this or that. Oh my God, I’m so sorry. Um, but um, I have to go through all these hoops and then. I’m stressed out. I’m like sweating.

I need the money. I need the job. I get the job. I’m like, whew. All right. It’s Monday. What game do I have to play today? So you’re going to have depressed workers. You’re gonna have stressed out workers. You’re gonna have burnt out workers and eventually. Hopefully when they learn their value, they’re going to quit.

So I think employers can do this, but they’re gonna have, they’re gonna have a high turnover rate. They’re not going to attract the best talent because they’re, so they’re just losing so many with that. And the company’s culture is going to suck as well as the world. Yeah.

Dan Knauss: And I, I kind of appreciate more and more how, um, how, you know, there’s an interpersonal [00:13:00] ethical level where.

You’re maybe hurting someone in their, you know, immediate lives with, um, with a, a work environment that doesn’t build them up. And mm-hmm, , um, puts them in a situation where they have to, um, you know, not really know if they’re at parody with their peers and, and colleagues or what they’re worth, or, um, and if you damage.

I mean, there’s, there’s a certain amount of human capital that employers just assume, you know, we just produce it, you know, our mm-hmm and it, you know, there’s a whole, all the people that are holding us up, family, friends, and, and, and time off and rest and, and all of that. If, if you’re just depleting people and you don’t put that back, ultimately you’re hurting the.

Culture like for us, um, WordPress tech industry, you know, it’s, it’s, [00:14:00] it’s damaging how the larger culture works and, and, you know, your, your employees move on to someone else than they mm-hmm , you know, they’re are we, we should want to pass people out better than they were when they came in. Yeah. Or at least as, as good.

And, um, so it’s not, uh, you’re not damaging people. You’re not damaging our ecosystem. Um, I, I feel like a human, I don’t like the term. I kind of reject the term human resource, but mm-hmm , if you’re gonna look at things kind of ecologically, you shouldn’t draw down on that human resource. That’s a commons too.

Our labor commons in, in WordPress. So yeah, hopefully this conversation that, that will, will continue and. Yeah, your, your article, I think was the first I’ve seen someone kind of bring that out and yeah. I want to have to put you impeach it together. [00:15:00] Oh, okay. Have you met her?

Nyasha Green: I have not. No. Okay.

Dan Knauss: Yeah. It’s, it’s an important, important issue.

Um, so I think two, we were, we were talking earlier about, um, mm-hmm, the, the history that’s kind of at our backs too. Mm-hmm and. what people have been through and what in living memory, in their, in their family touches them, you know, it’s different and we’re not always sensitive to that, that kind of thing.

And in the United States, you know, Canada’s got another version of this here. There’s if you’re people don’t exist in a vacuum and they don’t come to you, um, in a vacuum and. When you, when you faced employers like that, where there’s a clear, you know, we’re gonna arbitrarily use, give managers power over you, does that.

What does that, [00:16:00] how does that register to you in the context of your family history? That someone like me probably doesn’t have,

Nyasha Green: well, it’s always a red flag, especially with power plays and. You know, I’m gonna tie it back to American slavery. Everyone’s favorite topic . And so, uh, we talked a little bit about, um, living memory and how it’s not that far back for that many people.

And I have a very large family, a very old family and the things they experienced that they it’s still, first of all, it’s not that long ago and it’s still. Just basically shapes what I do and how I feel about things today and specifically, um, you know, people like to talk about slavery. Um, well, so long ago, none of you guys knew any slaves and things like that.

And that’s not true, especially from my family. Um, so I sent you an article about my great, great grandfather Jefferson do. And, uh, he was born in the 1950s. So he was born into [00:17:00] slavery in South Carolina and he lived a hundred. In 1850s, he lived 105 years. That’s how old he was when he died. Wow. Um, so he lived until the 19, um, sixties.

Mm-hmm um, as a matter of fact, the equal pay act, um, was, um, It passed in 1963, that was there. He died. So, um, my great-grandfather was alive for, uh, slavery. He lived through the civil war. He lived through the creation of the automobile. He lived through, you know, the early civil rights movements, um, Rosa parks.

He was alive to see Martin Luther king Jr. Walk, you know, and my mom was alive. My mom was, um, about eight. When he, he died, she still remembers running errands for him. My mom knew him. He was a slave. He was born into slavery. Um, his granddaughters, they were in their thirties. When he, when they died twenties or thirties, they’re still alive.

Three of them, um, in their late eighties. And, um, he was the patriarch of our family and the things he taught [00:18:00] them, the things he taught his sons, the things he taught his grandsons, his great grandsons that shaped our family that shaped our worldview. He would tell them, you know, these are things we did in slavery, but now that you all don’t have to do that, this is what you should.

He told people that are still alive that today . Yeah. Um, so people don’t realize how long ago, long ago. Wasn’t yeah, we had laws in the book with just when he, he was not a, a free person when he was born. And by the time he died, there was a equal rights amendment for pay between men and women that was in the sixties that wasn’t that long ago.

So . Legalized discrimination and pay is still happening. You know, they, that amendment doesn’t go far enough. It doesn’t protect against race, sexuality, religion, things like that. Um, just the things that happened to him. What happened to his daughters? What happened to his granddaughters? Those things follow me today.

His grand, his great granddaughter. [00:19:00] My mother integrated her high school. She was always paid less than everybody else. She went to H B, C U cuz. She could not go to other colleges. This was the seventies. Yeah. I’m not talking about 2, 3, 400 years ago. Um, you know, so you know, my family always stressed education, getting the best education.

They always stressed working somewhere where your employer respects you because it wasn’t too long ago where they didn’t have a. Yep. So I think it would take these companies. They would be well reminded to remember the people that they deal with, especially people of color in the United States. We’ve been dealing with this stuff more recently than you think.

So do you want to be a company that’s known as one that lived in the past that kept these bad things going? Or do you want to be known as a progressive company that was ahead of the curve? Yeah, they had the laws in Colorado, but your company in South Carolina, why don’t you, why don’t you jump ahead of the curve too?

Why don’t you do this? Why don’t you do that? Yeah. Why don’t you be the best you can be? Why don’t you take this lemon me memory cuz it’s all of our history, even though it happened to a certain subject we’re Americans, it [00:20:00] happened to all of us. Yeah. All of us were a part of this. When this happened, our, our ancestors.

Touched

Dan Knauss: all of the Americas touched everything and it Europeans doing it it’s it was a global global system. And yeah, in a hundred years, you know, two, three generations in a family that’s living memory and it’s it’s a hundred years. And that seems like a long time, but that’s body memory. That’s, you know, you’re, was it.

This is kind of more tended to in, in trauma, uh, psychology and understanding of that. And, you know, the, what is it? The genetically you are part of, um, an egg formed in your mother’s mother mm-hmm and. This goes, it’s a long, it’s a long way back his, and you don’t have to scratch the surface of any community to, to find the history [00:21:00] of, um, traumas there.

Um, mm-hmm , you know, I think I told you about, like, when I researched family history, one, one branch of my, um, uh, German Moravian ancestors who started out pacifists and abolitionists. And, and so on one branch went down and founded Winston Salem, North Carolina. And, um, they decided it would be okay if they had slaves, but treated them as spiritual equals, just not labor equals mm-hmm oldest black church in, in America is still running there.

And they’re still in a kind of reconciliation process cuz there’s um, it was, um, yeah, not a. Not a good thing, not a good outcome. And it’s um, so yeah, my part of my family is on the other side of that. And you, I think if you, you dig down, it’s not that far in Canada, we’re dealing with. What everyone knew, but is now very publicly aware that [00:22:00] as late as the sixties, indigenous kids were being stripped from their families, put in the religious schools and, um, for cultural assimilation by force, and a lot of them were abused and died in there.

These mass graves that are coming up. And, um, what do we have to say about that is people are. Very touched in their families by, by that, that experience. Um, so yeah, I don’t, I don’t see how you can talk about, we want an inclusive culture without, and being historically ignorant of these mm-hmm of these things.

Nyasha Green: Yeah. And people need to listen to people of color when they talk about this too. Like, I can trace my family back to here and we experience this stuff until now. Like, this is what you should do to make it more inclusive to help us. Oh, yeah, that’s fine and dandy, but no, mm-hmm, no more butts. No, if ands or butts.

Yeah.[00:23:00]

Dan Knauss: So moving, moving from one, one survey to another. So, you know, peach is doing the survey unemployment, um, Practices and, you know, it’s a, it is a bit of a hot button, potential thing there mm-hmm um, and as far as I know, um, she’s had all kinds of responses that have been cordial and professional and, and fine.

She’s a, a white European woman. Um, and I’m, I’m glad I hope I’m right about that. That that’s, that’s been. A question and a public kind of probing that we can handle maturely. But then yesterday we see Allie Nimmons, um, talking about a, what I would think is a much more benign survey, um, and getting a [00:24:00] lot, lot of shit mm-hmm and that’s just not a not appropriate.

And she’s an African American woman. Um, Makes you think what, tell, tell me what your thoughts are, what, what, um, and what Allie was, was trying to do there.

Nyasha Green: Um, so Allie was, you know, just trying to do a survey. Um, she’s really, everybody knows. Allie is really big on WordPress contribution and, um, she’s just trying to get a feel of how easy or hard it is for people to contribute.

So we can go about addressing ways to make it easier for. Simply it, you know, I think that’s great. Um, you know, I see stuff every day about, we need more contributions to WordPress. Why anybody would be against people trying to help that I have no idea, but, um, the, a lot of comments she got were so passive aggressive, and that’s not the first time I’m seeing that in the WordPress community.

Um, People are very, [00:25:00] very passive aggressive. When you ask questions. Um, no matter how benign they are, people, they have to flip it, especially if it’s not like the questions they want to ask, which to me, I’m just going to say they need to work on, but you know, that’s all I wanna say about that, but I just think.

A lot of people didn’t consciously see, it’s like, she’s asking these questions. This is African American woman. The, all of the bad responses I saw were not from African Americans. And I don’t think anywhere from women and they were just kind of jumping down her throat like, oh, you didn’t ask this question the way I want you to ask it.

Oh, I can’t do this because this is not the way I would do this.

what, first of all, what do you like? I, I wanna ask these people, like, do you talk to people like that at your job? Do you say, no, I can’t help you with this project cuz you didn’t do it the way I, [00:26:00] I wanted you to do it. Right. I, I, how many people like yourself do you talk to like that? But you know, I’m not saying they were consciously malicious.

I will give them the benefit of the doubt, but that was something I just really didn’t like to.

Dan Knauss: Yeah. And did you say, since you were working on, on this with her, this was, this was for, um, master WP, um, surveying. Um, yes, yes. Yeah. Did you say that there was, um, like you have some guys. Giving the kind of response of like, is this open to white people?

Is this a closed survey? Like for, there’s no reason to think that, right. Yeah. Other than that, she’s

Nyasha Green: running it black. Yeah. Why would you ask, why would you ask someone that

Dan Knauss: they just assume, because she’s running it, that

Nyasha Green: it’s a diverse survey. Yeah. There’s no, it’s only people of color. What, in your mind, how does your mind work to do that?

That, that, that was the response that annoyed me the [00:27:00] worst.

Dan Knauss: I have a hard time believing. They actually think that they are just have a chip on their shoulder because of their perception of what all kind of stands for in their mind. As I think reasonably outspoken person who is really good at taking on a lot of issues, we need to talk.

Nyasha Green: The best, honestly,

Dan Knauss: really okay.

Nyasha Green: And, um, yeah, I just, I think it also comes from it’s the community. That’s another issue with us in diversity. We need a more diverse community.

Dan Knauss: Well, she’s doing it. Oh, basically for a long time anyway. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you’re, there’s other, there’s a lot more, but

Nyasha Green: yeah, people had like interactions with people who don’t look like them.

They would know when a person is asking a genuine question. That’s why I’m yelling from the clouds. We need a more diverse WordPress, because it’s not enough to tell people this is how you’re diverse or what we’re just talking about. Like, you know, the history of us, and this is how we [00:28:00] interact, and this is how you can make it easier for us.

It’s not enough to tell people that they need to experience this. They need empathy. They need to, they need to talk to people. Yeah. So pushing from more diversity and WordPress will definitely help with that. It definitely will. I I’m sure we will see the difference. and I,

Dan Knauss: I think kindness and basic respect, um, the negative outcome here is, you know, at least in the moment and the emotion of it now, like ally says, she’s not gonna do one of these surveys again, and that’s not what we want.

And just having, doing something as simple as that, asking people on about a contribution to the project, um, That she gets kind of targeted in that way is just not a not okay. And to, to demo demoralize people, anyone out of doing productive, constructive work, like that is, is not something that is [00:29:00] healthy in any way.

It’s still, you know, it’s completely what we don’t want. Mm-hmm um,

yeah, I hope I hope that comes out. In a better, better result than just we never ask these, these kind of things again. But, um, I, I re I, I recognize I was, you know, telling you about this before. I, I recognize where that comes from, and it, it’s not just men, but there is, there is that white male fragility.

And, you know, I have, you know, I have that inside me too. There’s like the, everyone’s got a scared, frustrated child or, you know, there’s that part of you, it’s not your best self. And maybe in some people it gets the better of them a lot more. It it’s in charge. Um, you got your own wounds, you got your own sense of grievances and why [00:30:00] wasn’t, uh, why am I not, blah, blah, blah.

All you can see is someone else is getting preference ahead of me or something like that. I mm-hmm, totally admit to having a part that feels that has felt that. So I don’t, I don’t know. The big question for me is, and that came up in Michelle’s misogyny article an issue. I don’t know quite what to say to men who, um, I recognize where that comes from.

Mm-hmm. and it’s really hard to know how to say this is something you gotta grow on in a con in a constructive way. Cause I think it’s a genuine failure. It’s mm-hmm , it’s a, there’s not a better, uh, better word for it. It’s a, it is a genuine and common thing to have from being. Growing up in a, in a culture that doesn’t have this kind of history at its back that we [00:31:00] were talking about that takes for granted things that are privilege, but we don’t see it that way until we learn to see it that way.

Mm-hmm until you, you move into it a different environment or something changes for you for, for me, it was, you know, after I was 12 or so, that was probably the last time I lived in a highly. Homogenous kind of environment and was mm-hmm generally in a minority myself. So, um, if you don’t get stuff like that, I don’t know.

It’s, it’s not an easy thing to grow on. And then you got grown men who, you know, they’re, they haven’t grown on that. Do you have any, any thoughts on that? Like how is that a, how do we crack that in? And it it’s, it’s a tough one, cuz you can. It deserves to be aggressively treated, but that, but still with, in some kindness and [00:32:00] understanding because you don’t get anywhere with people, um, when you’re both feeling grievance and anger,

Nyasha Green: I think, and I don’t know if this is like, I would have to think on it more, but my first thought.

I think this process, cause it’s been a while it’s called, I think they called it sugaring. I don’t, if that’s not it, please forgive me. But, um, it’s a process of just going through an unlearning internal biases that you may have, because like I said, I don’t think most of these people did it maliciously.

Um, and just for an example where I learned this term, um, I got to meet some of the feminists of South Carolina, some of the, uh, older ones who helped write like the sexual assault laws and things like that. The most badass women I’ve ever met in my life. Oh my gosh. And um, my old neighbor actually was one of them too.

Um, Hey, Dr. Sally Boyd. Um, but, uh, they were just incredible women and they talked about, you know, just fighting for different things for [00:33:00] women in the seventies and sixties and eighties in South Carolina. Um, they help integrate the Sears downtown because they didn’t, uh, have black, uh, they didn’t want black clerks out.

Funny story from that, what they did was one of the women had like five children and. They went to Sears and she was like, they told ’em just to let her children go. And they ran everywhere because they would go to talk to a manager and the manager would just never wanna talk to them. But when they let those children, wow.

The clerks were so busy. The manager had to come out and talk to them. So , you know, but before they got to actually actions like that, which was incredible by the way, cuz these were rich, upper class white. And, you know, they believe in the quality for all, they were fighting for African American women to have this right.

But before they got to that step, they had to unlearn biases that they had. Again, they were upper class, white, rich women from the south. They were in a whole nother, you know, ballpark, a whole nother ballgame. And, uh, one of them talked about how one of the women they met was a doctor, but before they met her, they just heard they were talking to [00:34:00] Dr.

So, and so let’s say Dr. Brown, Dr. Brown was coming to meet with them and they thought it was going to be her husband. and the woman walked in and it’s like, you know, these are, these are feminists. They, they have, you know, actions they’ve done, but they still had this notion that when I hear doctor as a man yeah.

Um, things like that. So they told us like, you know, even though you all may think you’re feminist, you may think you’re, uh, freedom fighters. You may think you’re, uh, fighting for people underneath you or your own race or your own gender. We all have these biases that we have to unlearn. And we all have to go through this process.

And I don’t think white men in particular. Told a lot to, you know, we need to go through this process and this is how so I think sugaring and I hope that’s the word again, um, is what they do. If that’s not the world, I’ll correct myself. Next time we talk, I’m gonna look it up. But, um, we just have to get together.

Well, they have to get together and, um, just unlearn stuff and it starts with education. It starts with talking with other people, um, check your privilege, I guess, is what the kids say these days. [00:35:00] yeah. So yeah, I think that would be the most helpful.

Dan Knauss: Yeah, sugaring to me sounds, sounds, um, I’m thinking of sweet tea and yeah.

Trying to sweeten a otherwise bitter thing, but, um, mm-hmm yeah. I hear, hear what you’re saying. I, yeah, and it, it probably never, it never really ends. My, my experience with it is, is you just kind of find, um,

we’re probably all better off acknowledging that we’ve got, you know, you got, you got a shadow, you got a dark spot and you know, everyone’s heart has got, uh, you know, that, that side that go, when things go, you know, you, you don’t want the person you don’t want to be, or hopefully you don’t, you don’t want, you know, the, the worst self is, is there in everyone.

And. um, doesn’t wanna [00:36:00] listen to other, other people is more concerned with its own, own sense of, um, entitlement or injuries or, or, or even even needs. And, um, yeah, that’s a tough, tough thing to, um, to get people to, to take seriously and, and handle well, unless it’s in, in a kind of community relational context where you can.

Friendship and peer collegiality and respect as such a part of the culture and a priority that it’s hard. You, you, it gives you a baseline. I, I, I think that’s where all, all forms of contribution should feed that, that, um, that we’re, we kind of hold each other up because. Open sources based on trust, like any, any good [00:37:00] community, any good relationships.

And when you got that, you can kind of hold each other up a bit and tolerate some of some degree of conflict that’s necessary and, and disagreement and hurt feelings and, and all that. But I not, not really that good at it all the time, probably better than some other communities, but I don’t know if that matters.

Nyasha Green: No worries. I, I agree with you. It’s just communication and holding your community. A responsible charity begins at home. My grandmother always said that. So we look out for our community. Our community will look out for other communities. It’s kind of like paying it forward.

Dan Knauss: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, um, I think it’s important.

I’m glad I, I kind of know, we know something of each other, like where we live our stories or mm-hmm, , you know, background and I feel like in. Context. That’s important to kind of slowly tell those stories and know that stuff for each other grounds, grounds things makes it harder to do that [00:38:00] internet psychosis, where it’s not real people that you’re shooting at, you know, just venting on or something.

And, and it makes kindness more the common ground. Well, that’s a lot covered a lot. Oh yeah. We . We always do. Yeah. Well, that’s. Maybe maybe next time we’ll do do some more, um, techy, newsy stuff, but, um, yeah. Got a really good, a good question from someone who is outside the community and kind of, you know, wants to, to get in senior developer, wasn’t done a lot of WordPress.

What would you advise that I do to get in? We’ve had a bunch of answers come and, um, yeah, it’d be interested in your take on some stuff like that. I’ll probably write about it soon.

Nyasha Green: Yeah, let’s get into that next. all right.

Dan Knauss: Cool. Sweet. Thank you. You’re

Nyasha Green: so welcome. Yeah.

Dan Knauss: I’m glad you look like a hundred percent back.

Rested, healthy post COVID.

Nyasha Green: I looked that bad last week. Dang Dan. No, I [00:39:00] haven’t said that

Dan Knauss: smiling. Yeah. All take care. All you too. Best everyone on your, on your team.

Nyasha Green: Yeah, I’ll let ’em know. . Bye.

Dan Knauss: Bye.