Dan and Ny talk about their WordCamp US experiences both good and bad. Their conversation focuses on accessibility and disability. Ny had an experience with Uber at WCUS that made her agree with Dan’s preference for traditional and preferably unionized taxi companies or public transit. They both reflect on the accessibility challenges and failures Michelle Frechette shared in Five Days Without a Shower before turning to an important article by Piccia Neri that was published at Post Status last week.

Piccia’s article considers the value of salary transparency in hiring and job listings after asking WordPress employers why they don’t advertise a salary range in listings. Ny is optimistic pay transparency will soon be the norm in US law. Dan is optimistic the WordPress community can make the changes it needs out of empathy and regard for others plus the motivation to build a high quality, professional workforce. They both close out this episode expressing gratitude for the WordCamp organizers and volunteers who made WCUS possible this year.

If [an employer] can’t afford not to operate without suspicion and distrust, what does that tell you?
Dan Knauss

🔗 Mentioned in the show:

🙏 Sponsor: A2 Hosting

👋 Credits

Nyasha Green, Editorial Director at MasterWP (Twitter)
Dan Knauss, Editor for Post Status (Twitter)
Olivia Bisset, Web Producer intern for Post Status (Twitter)

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Transcript

Dan Knauss: [00:00:00] Good afternoon Ny!

Nyasha Green: Hey Dan, how are you?

Dan Knauss: I’m doing all right. Get any rest after WordCamp US?

Nyasha Green: Um, that following weekend. Yes. I think I slept the entire Saturday. How about you?

Dan Knauss: Yeah, I, I caught up a little bit cuz right? Both of us and other, other people from your team. Uh, man, we had some late night talks.

It was really great. I really enjoyed meeting Matt and Devin and Brian too. And I briefly got to talk to Teron too, but man, you guys have a big group, so I got a nice picture. Me and Allie got you all there against the mural, and wow there were so many people to talk to.

Nyasha Green: Oh yeah, yeah.

This team is like so awesome. And. that was our first time meeting in person. And nobody re nobody thought that they were like, no, you all [00:01:00] like carry on like old friends. And I was like, well, it seems like we’re old friends.

Dan Knauss: I know I kept forgetting that! That was the first time you all met too. And yeah, that’s great.

Um, that’s a good, good bunch of people. And like I said, on Twitter, it. I don’t know, I don’t, I don’t feel that old, but I, I definitely, uh, younger, younger people, including, including you, who I think are just, it’s great to see, um, young, diverse, cool team coming into, into WordPress, deeper and deeper and just loved.

A lot of the conversations we had. Um, and just throughout the whole thing, probably the, the biggest thing for me was, um, the kind of information, the kind of things you learn, the kind of questions. And, um, I, don’t getting, getting kind of a map. I, you know, I’m, I’m trying to figure out the map of the WordPress business ecosystem and the project mm-hmm as a whole understand the community and how [00:02:00] things work or don’t work.

And, uh, that was, that was. Great way to, to really beef that up, validate some ideas, throw in new questions, throw some curves at me. Um, nice. What was your, what was your main takeaway? What got out of it most?

Nyasha Green: Um, so my main takeaway was the community is it’s bigger than I can like even imagine. And like this word camp was smaller.

you know, due to COVID restrictions. So I know they’re usually way bigger than that. And it’s just, I cannot wrap my mind around that because I was able to meet so many different people from so many different companies that do so many different things in WordPress. So it is to me like unfathomable, like just the, the sheer amount of people and then from different walks of life.

So I, I thought that was awesome. It was so nice meeting. So many people like, um, I really appreciated that. [00:03:00] Also, um, it was just the talks. They were so most of them were so like personable and the people like the speakers were so great. Like, I, I could tell that they took their time selecting really great speakers.

Mm-hmm the content and the speakers were amazing. I have like, no complaints about that, that at all, it was definitely a tech conference where I felt comfortable sitting through like entire, you know, workshops and sessions because everything was just so interesting and it was relevant and, you know, it was really good.

Dan Knauss: Yeah. Yeah, it really was. I, I they’ve really got the, um, the, uh, presentation format down. Well, the live, um, transcription was really useful. I, I found myself, um, following that quite a lot. And, um, maybe cuz I, some of the time when I was multitasking a little bit, like what, what, what, what they say there or.

[00:04:00] Yeah, that and, and just the screen. And so, yeah, no matter how far back you were, you could read or hear quite, quite well. So, um, I, I don’t know how long that’s been a, a feature, but I think it’s pretty standard now and it’s done. It’s done great. Mm-hmm but, um, yeah. Other other accessibility things not, not so not so great.

Huh?

Nyasha Green: Mm.

No, no, no, no, no, not at all, but I’m gonna let you take the lead on that, cuz I want you to explain your experience, which I was very angry about. Well,

Dan Knauss: I, I wouldn’t say I got angry about it. I,

Nyasha Green: yeah, I was angry. It’s okay. Reading more after

Dan Knauss: we, after we read Michelle’s piece mm-hmm but um, well we’ve Michelle Frette has, um, written for us before about her experience.

Mm-hmm accessibility and wrote a guide actually. It might be close to a year ago. [00:05:00] And after, after that, and we had been together at a, a post status retreat, I, I tended to think more of the things she wrote in there from her experience, from her standpoint. So mm-hmm, , I think. What’s Michelle, what’s it like for Michelle and you know, and I going into it, I wasn’t sure quite what to expect, but when I was booking, I saw there was, um, an option for ADA rooms and I apparently didn’t have that many of them mm-hmm and I thought, you know, I should see what, this is, what this experience is like.

And at the same time, um, I’ve, you know, you know, Situation a bit. I, I thought I’d, I’ve been trying to be more getting older and having a progressive, um, neuromuscular disease that lifelong has just been, you know, my feet are ankles and knees and like are, are, uh, not [00:06:00] so not so great. And on any, any kind of slick surface or anything, I I’m always thinking about looking out for falling.

And which I’ve done probably more than the, the average. And, um, so having something to grab onto definitely. And like bathrooms is really thinking like, yeah, you know, I should quit pretending so much that I can hide this or, or get by and, um, trying to be trying to be more. Able to express need mm-hmm explain the situation.

It really puts your body out in the open to people and mm-hmm speakers. So I got that. I got that. I should, I should start experiencing this, cuz it’s only gonna, there’s only gonna be more ahead and it’s a pretty, you know, it’s a pretty mild cases. These things go. It’s not, hopefully I’ll never quite.

[00:07:00] Walking, but it, it knocks your mobility down. I’m able to run like I did as a, tried to, as a kid for decades. Mm-hmm and um, so I got in there and the, the guy at the, at the desk. Was acting kind of odd about it and saying, oh, do you really need the eat sweet? And I’m feeling like kind of bad, cuz you know, I look like a picture of privilege and, and stuff like, uh, well I don’t wanna take

Nyasha Green: this.

That doesn’t matter.

Dan Knauss: I, I, well, I don’t know it well, I sure wouldn’t wanna take it from someone else. Mm-hmm um, But I gathered pretty quickly from what he was saying that they didn’t really want to give me that room. And I was like, well, you know, looked this a while back. So like, you should have something.

And I was like, well, look, this is, and I had to explain myself, you know, cuz I, unless you’re kind of watching me walk from a way off you, you still might not, you know, you might not pick up on it. I it’s like, look, I, I [00:08:00] mainly just. Bathroom with grab bars and, you know, mm-hmm, something that’s easier to get in and out of.

And, um, I think that should just be on everything. Just be on everything falls. Yeah. Falls in the home are like the highest cause of death and injury. I think I read that once and, um, you know, it, the odds are not good on slip, tunnel, surfaces and stuff, the older you get period. And, um, and it, what ended up happening was.

they kind of confessed that there was a big generator truck right outside the door of this room. What, and as it was actually a truck of the generator and an air conditioning unit cooling the entire, that entire building on the, in the resort, or I guess the one on the roof ConEd out or something. And it was loud.

I mean, I mean it, maybe if you want like white noise or something, but it was. [00:09:00] You could cope and he’s like, yo, go in there and stand there five minutes. See, see what you think. Come back if it’s no good. And I was like, this doesn’t sound good. And it’s a long, long, long walk out. There’s all these gates and little stairs and things.

And I had a hard time finding how to get over there and cutting across grass and parking lots and stuff. And I found, you know, this is crazy. This is it’s. Ugly. Ridiculous noisy. And mm-hmm , um, at least it’s ground floor. You walk in shower, but you know, and if this is the last one, some, maybe someone else needs this more.

So I went right back and it’s like, look, I’ll, I just won’t towel. I just want, I want, uh, grab bars. So I don’t, you know, rip the towel bar, curtain bar out of the, out of the wall, which I mm-hmm, done. Um, , you know, they don’t even put like friction, like the little things in the bottom of the tub or, you know, stuff to like, not much of my foot surface, especially [00:10:00] on the left stuff.

Doesn’t touch the ground. I don’t have much grip mm-hmm . Um, and he did, he just didn’t touch that at all. Cuz they don’t have that. And, and later on, you know, they, the smallest toilets in the world and I, I, oh God, in the course of the like low oh low. You you’re doing a full squat there ,

Nyasha Green: that should be illegal for us, for us being tall.

Me and Dan are super tall. We got to like, experience that. Don’t worry, I’ll grow a little more and catch you. Yeah. But that should be illegal for us because that was so uncomfortable. It was like doing a crab walk. Like what in the world?

Dan Knauss: Yeah, I know. And, and the more I talk to other people and, you know, there.

Some of us are an aging group that have, you know, been in touching WordPress in some capacity for its entire lifespan and doing web stuff since the nineties, um, getting a little long in the tooth. Um, and there’s just a lot of people, you know, we’re not [00:11:00] how depends how you define disability, but he gets harder.

He gets harder. Mm-hmm and those are all things where pain. Injury and age, um, don’t, don’t make any of that experience fun or easy or accessible. And so, yeah, that’s what I learned. And I wrote a little about it and told Michelle I was gonna, and we both did and linked to each other, but her experience was as you know, um, much more intense one with the, you know, needing to, to get around with a scooter.

Nyasha Green: Yeah. I. You, well, let me talk about you first. I wish you would’ve said something to me because I would’ve been your, um, I know you’re very sweet, but I would’ve been your yeller I would’ve gone up there. Like why God I business that you guys could get? No, I wouldn’t have been that bad, but I definitely would’ve.

I would’ve talked to him. I would, I wouldn’t have yelled at them, but, um, I, I, I [00:12:00] understand. I take care of my disabled mom and she never likes as for help. So I understand how it is. I wish that we could come to like a place where we, you, we could get, um, you all more comfortable with that because I definitely do not mind helping out.

Um, my second thing I was gonna say is I’m just, I’m angry because I, I know, and it’s not like, you know, it’s not the person at the desk fault. It’s just an, I don’t know what you would call it, what, uh, what would be a microaggression to see someone and to not be able to see their disability. So assume they don’t have one.

Right. And I hate that and I hate that people are trained to do that. And I, I just, I hate that you’re experience that. And I just also hate that that place just, it’s just really wasn’t equipped. Um, Very well for accessibility, like it list like even looking at Michelle’s article and it’s stuff that I didn’t pay attention to.

Of course I did not pay attention to, but a big thing was not having a way to like, wave your [00:13:00] hands or like hit the button to open the doors, like right. Michelle had to depend on like the doors of being open or someone opening the door for her. That’s ridiculous in. You know, the stuff you think would be a quick fix.

And I’m one of these people where I’m at the point where I’m tired of hearing excuses about it. I won’t take my anger out on people, but. Things have to change. Like there’s, there’s no excuse for that. And I’m disappointed. Like people tell me all the time, like you think California has this big utopia and I don’t, I know California has many issues.

It’s a big state. I know it has many issues, but it’s like, it’s disappointing to me to have places like that in a major city. Where accessibility is not like high, a high priority on their list. Like it was just like being back in South Carolina where they refused to make buildings accessible, put things, they say they’re historical landmarks.

And it just, that makes me angry as well. So, oh yeah. I, yeah, I, I just, uh, I was very angry and, but also very sad to hear about these circumstances, especially, you know, when so many of our [00:14:00] community depends on accessibility. Yeah.

Dan Knauss: Yeah. Um, It really wouldn’t take too much to get a minimum, um, accessibility standard.

I, I mm-hmm, in a lot of places or at least just, you know, improve some of the basic safety and utility there. Yeah. Doors, doors shouldn’t be difficult for anybody. And, and, uh, there were a lot of things that were right. It just wasn’t thought out. And mm-hmm I actually expect that from the west Western Canada is the same, you know, like Atlanta, just brawl mm-hmm I, I briefly looked.

How would I get on walk down to the train station? If you try to cross that highway there, there’s like, there’s no pedestrian. It’s just, you wait for cars to, let you through. And then, um, you ring by two highways and then, uh, get on the train and shouldn’t that go right to the airport. But Google is telling me no, there would be a big walk on the other end.

Because, you know, I’m I was trying to avoid Uber cuz they,

Nyasha Green: [00:15:00] um, or terrible people. Yeah.

Dan Knauss: Well, yes as you a great experience there either, but yeah. They’re hostility tech journalists like Sara Lacey some years back, I like okay. Never unionized cab company. So.

Nyasha Green: I’m starting to blood feud with them, by the way, I’m still still going.

I’m still, I’m still angry. so

Dan Knauss: yes. You had a, a, a racist comment made, uh, by your driver. Am I that,

Nyasha Green: that not exactly. No.

Dan Knauss: Okay. What was the, I get sideways into that,

Nyasha Green: but, mm. I don’t even know, like, I’m not as, you know, something happens and you’re really angry about it, but then as time goes by, you’re not as angry.

I’m still like pretty angry. Like I’m still as angry as I was when it happened. But, uh, long story short, our Uber driver came to take us to the airport and it was very early in the morning and you know, it was [00:16:00] me and two of my coworkers were all people of color and, um, there was a white lady out there with us too.

That was only, that was just us. And she was, you know, standing around, waiting for her ride. We were waiting for ours, you know, just average stuff. And the driver came and the woman went up to the white woman, went up to the Uber and she was like, Hey, how you doing? She started putting her stuff in. And my coworker was like, oh, I think that’s our Uber.

And she doesn’t use Uber a lot. So she didn’t have like a profile picture up. Um, so you know, the guy didn’t, you know, he couldn’t see. Who he was picking up and like, um, the guy I got out the car and was helping her with her luggage. And then he like, you know, my coworker was like, Hey, I think that’s ours.

He didn’t even get acknowledge her. At first, he, you know, responded to the lady. He was like, you’re not so and so, and she said, no, my name is Soandso. And so he like got back in his car and he locked his doors. And like, we didn’t know what was going on. So we just started going to the Uber. We were like, oh, okay.

You know, that was solved. Cuz she was like, oh, okay. And went back, you know, to where she was standing. And um, he locked his door and we were like, [00:17:00] uh, you know, confused. We were like, you know, you lock your door. Right. And. My other coworker was like, are you not about to? Cause we didn’t realize what was going on.

He’s like, are you not about to take this to the airport? And he said, no, I’m not taking you anywhere. And then he like slams on his gas, like we’re by the car. So he could have run over our foot feet. He slams on his gas and he like peels out of there when he sees this us, like in like, it was like, we, you know, it took us a moment to register it.

Because we were like, what just happened? Even the lady was like, what just happened? She was like, what is going on? And like, Um, my coworker who was closer a little closer than I was like, he was like, when we were like, you’re not taking us, he was like, I’m not taking you. I’m not taking you people anywhere.

It was, you know, along that line. So I was like, what? And like that was like some crazy old school racism that I usually would experience and like rural South Carolina. So I’m like, I know I’m not in San Diego being told I can’t get up. Ride to the airport. And, you know, again, I know [00:18:00] racism is everywhere, racist people are everywhere, but, um, it was just, it was weird because it was so many people out there.

Like he didn’t care if he had witnesses. It was. And then it was just weird. And like, I wasn’t, I was angry, but I was like, well, Uber is a major company. They are not gonna stand for this. They have a mission statement, which they, they do not allow discrimination and they refused to do anything because the driver said he didn’t wanna take us because he was worried about COVID.

Although the driver was not wearing a mask and the white lady, he wanted to take. Instead of us also did not have on the mask. So we were like, what? And we were like, well, why couldn’t he tell us that? Why did he say he wasn’t taking us? You know, you people anywhere, why did he slam on the brakes and almost run over our feet?

Why there, we were like, that made no sense. We just think he was mad because he saw the, just the name. And he was like, okay, you know, this name is not. Probably not urban. Let’s go pick them up. And then that’s not that wasn’t the case. So, um, Uber refused to do anything about it. They said they weren’t gonna do anything about it.

Um, that driver is still out there probably still [00:19:00] discriminating against people and doing that and making his money through Uber. And that’s why I have a blood feud against them. Now I am a hundred percent dedicated to the destruction of that company. I am praying on their down fall daily. their hack.

Yeah. Yeah. They hacked the other day. It made my day. I slept with a big smile on my face. I think I woke up with a smile on my face. Like I’m dedicated to the, the destruction of that company, because it’s one thing to have an ignorant person, but to stand behind them as a company. Oh no, yeah, no, no, no, no, no.

So yeah,

Dan Knauss: I I’ve surpris, I’m surprised over the years, they’ve Sur they’ve survived the blows to their brand and just the, the profit model is, you know, I’m with the. Taxi drivers who blocked them. and, uh, yeah, it’s just, it’s super convenient. I did try it for the first time. I never installed the app, but I, um, I had to get out quicker than I expected.

Cause I was waiting for room service that never came and the train thing, I couldn’t [00:20:00] figure out how to do it on foot. Like a good urban. Mass transit it’s like, okay, this will be, I know this works. Um, I wasn’t, I wasn’t able to get my, get direct calls to work though. Almost the whole time I was there. Um, oh yeah.

You told me that Canadian phone plan switching over to something and anyway, yeah. There’s all kinds of little things happen when you travel. I’m glad the guy didn’t make a, I thought he had said something too, but that’s just, that’s crazy. So did he pay for that fair?

Nyasha Green: No, he okay, good. Yeah. Like we didn’t pay for it.

Um, the only comment he made was like, it was like the, you people, like we’re not taking, if I I’m one of those people, like, yeah. He’s like, I’m gonna take you people anywhere. like yeah. You people.

Dan Knauss: Okay. And so, um, knock in the door. Yeah,

Nyasha Green: it was crazy. I’ve. It’s been a while since I’ve experienced overt racism like that, you know, I’m used to the little [00:21:00] passive Southern racism where they’re like, oh, you know, just hurrying alone, alone when they see you coming and stuff like that.

But that was really crazy. And I couldn’t believe, like, I just really couldn’t believe he did that. Like I was like, dude, like, but like a scene Uber’s response. I’m like, he’s probably done this a bunch of times. Like, like Uber did not care. Um, so it was. Very, I don’t know. Yeah. I was angry. I’m still angry about it.

I’m not, I’m not gonna let up on this either. Like every person I talk to, everything I write about, they’re gonna know how horrible Uber is, honestly.

Dan Knauss: Well, sorry about that. And it not really a, well, I don’t know that those, how, how we treat each other is especially at those kind of points of. You know, strangers interacting or people you have to interact with at a conference to get from point a to point B it’s.

I don’t know it’s part of it. It is kind of an [00:22:00] accessibility thing and it, and it feels the same way. Like, am I gonna be safe? Mm-hmm am I, you know, can I trust these what’s going on here? Am I gonna be okay. Um, and the more vulnerable position you’re in the worst, all that can. land on you. Um,

Nyasha Green: I’ve thought about that, cuz you know, you, you know that, um, I’m on a boot right now.

I can’t, and then I have crutches cuz I hurt my foot and you know, the thought did PO pass my mind. It’s like, what if that guy was like, He wasn’t just like the passive racist. He was like the violent racist and saw me on a boot and like wanted to push me down or something like that. Right. And it’s like, that’s stuff, you know, there are lots of people who are disabled, who are people of color that probably, and not probably that have to deal with stuff like that.

And that, that was another thought. Like, I I’ve thought a lot about, you know, things. That I need to examine myself like as a person who, like I said, just because I take care of my disabled mom, [00:23:00] that doesn’t mean that I’m disabled and that I have to go through these things. So a lot of this was eye opening for me as well.

And I think, I think that transportation, um, I kind of wrote about this. I think transportation being set up by either word camp or some of the organizations. Would’ve um, would definitely help out. Mm. Um, especially for people who need accessible ways to get around, because, you know, if you do do. Uh, what, what would you call like a Uber Lyft and you request like accessibility?

What if no, accessibility, uh, no drivers with accessible, like room are available, you know? Right. You just can’t go. So I definitely think it’s an accessibility issue and you know, people are awful. It’s nothing we can do about that, but we can definitely like, you know, help out a little

Dan Knauss: bit more. That’s definitely a tough one for, uh, Michelle has mention.

Several times being discriminated against because of her scooter, which breaks down mm-hmm into like five pieces and will fit in a trunk, you know, how do you think it got there on a plane? You know? Yeah. But they will give her the, they will balk at that and act like they’re gonna, [00:24:00] they can’t take her. Um, there was most, most of the time I was jumping in a ride with someone else and people stayed together and kind of looked out for each other and that’s.

that’s always a good thing, but mm-hmm yeah. What if you find yourself in a boot coming home late from a karaoke club and you can get some kind of treatment like that. And yeah, I did manage to Luren eye out to, uh, found a karaoke place where it was a good, real good show, but the, the list was too deep and

Nyasha Green: Dan did not do my do it with me.

Y’all you see how he did me? It was, I was so upset.

Dan Knauss: It was so loud. My voice was gone. Anyway. I would had to do. Um, whatever I was thinking yeah. Inappropriate to do the sex pistols at that point. But, um,

Nyasha Green: I like the sex pistols we could have done. See, we could agree on anything and like, we could have done that.

And Elton John. Yeah. And El John

Dan Knauss: than John. Yeah. Well, [00:25:00] okay. Next time we get together or one, um, word camp or any, any occasion we’ll we’ll try again. All right. I promise. Okay. Well, the other thing we wanted to talk about was the, the transparency article by PCHA and Mary, um, which I’ve been looking forward to publishing for a long time.

Mm-hmm , it’s really long. It’s awesome. I couldn’t bear to cut it down. I may have even made it longer. but it it’s worth it’s worth the 20, 30 minute thinking through, I learned. From it because it’s, it’s exhaustive. She, she went through, she went through our job board on, on post status and we have a long, you, a long history of thinking about this sort of thing.

We have lots of awesome employers who post, you know, all the jobs on there gonna be good. But, um, some people probably, probably most don’t don’t post a salary range or anything like that. And which use, oh, very easy to do. [00:26:00] WP job manager plug in, um, caters to that as a feature. Um, why not? Why don’t you put in a salary range, at least a range.

Yeah. Um, that was a question she took to the people who don’t do it. I think she also, she also talked with people who do, and she got all the reasons for and against, and then gave shared those, you know, not trying to shame or blame anyone. Totally respectful and no one just been no flack or anything like that over, it’s not WP drama.

It’s a real issue that’s coming legally. Um, and I know there’s European and, and state by state us legislation about it. Not really where in Canada, it’s more common to, I know it’s more common to see it here, especially around government, uh, jobs or nonprofit sector sometimes. Good, good. Um, It’s it’s [00:27:00] interesting what people say about why they don’t, um, disclose.

Essentially like the budget for the job. She compares it to an agency, um, trying to bid for, you know, are we gonna take this project with this client? The client just want to tell you the budget, um, huge. You might be wasting your time, um, burning money, doing, trying to discover what the project is with and realize it’s just too way too under budget.

Um, So, and there’s a whole other, a lot of other things that go on along with trust and culture building. Um, what did you think of, of that piece? What

Nyasha Green: I thought it was amazing. I wrote a piece about, uh, equal pay mm-hmm called put your money where your mouth is. Um, and she, yeah, hers was like way more in depth than mine.

So it’s, you know, you know, I don’t say it was better than mine, so I thought it was amazing and she really. What I didn’t think to do [00:28:00] that she did was actually going to the employers and saying, Hey, you know, we all know that a lot of people don’t do it, but actually getting them to admit why they don’t mm-hmm um, I thought was awesome because.

One, well, first of all, to me, that’s a counter argument that we can start making, knowing why these people do that. Now, like some of the stuff, the reasons they gave like, well, oh, you know, a salary is sometimes the person dependent like a 40 year old and, uh, Porto it. They don’t, um, that’s single, you know, it’s gonna be different than a 40 year old with a family in New York city.

It’s like, okay, I don’t care. Give me my money. Like, I, I hate, I hate that. Excuse the most, um, you know, I’m biased. I don’t have children, but I hate the excuse that, you know, because I’m single, I don’t need as much money as somebody with children. Right. Like, I don’t care. Like, you don’t know what I do with my money.

You don’t know what I need. You don’t know what’s going on in my life. So I hate that excuse. And I’m so glad she, you know, went to bat on that. Right.

Dan Knauss: There’s huge assumptions being made that, I mean, it’s it’s [00:29:00] yeah. It’s plainly openly. Discriminatory. And I don’t think that there you’d even be legally allowed to ask the questions about family and marital status to make an informed discrimination about need.

Like that would be a delicate conversation between friends about need. And, um, yeah, I, I, I agree with her that it was good to, to see what the thinking and, and different viewpoints are on that. I suspect a lot of people just really haven’t thought about it. They haven’t thought about it from the, from the job candidate perspective.

And I don’t, I really don’t think they’re good reasons. And, and it’s not, not some of the reason to be argued hard it’s coming in the law and the, um, you can see the ethics of it, but just the business pragmatism of, if you care about having an inclusive and culture of happy employees, mm-hmm, . Why start with suspicion and just distrust, right?

If you can [00:30:00] afford not to, to, to operate without suspicion and distrust, what does that tell you?

Nyasha Green: Yeah. Tells me I don’t need to work there. I need to go right. Run something up.

Dan Knauss: We’ve we’ve thought we’ve actually talked about this before we did a, I think we did a whole episode, mostly devoted to your, your article and thoughts and experience.

Um, pay transparency and oh yeah. Employer, employee relationship and how it especially impacts women, people of color. Um, there was, there was a section of Peach’s article that got into the stuff that’s difficult for me and is good to think about that. I suppose I’d paid more attention to in, in recent times, mm-hmm, just, if you have a, a background of, um, any number of experiences that, um, maybe particularly as a minority or someone with a disability or, or something like that, mm-hmm, , you’re selling yourself short they’re, they’re just [00:31:00] simply, she’s pretty direct about there’s just NIH talks about her own experience.

A lot of people, you know, we just wanna do meaningful work, right? Yeah. So we’re not awesome negotiators and. Um, maybe from rather unfortunate experiences, childhood later, other relationships, um, it’s very hard for us not to start from the standpoint of, uh, well, of course I’m not worth that much. Mm-hmm um, that, you know, if people who are, who are dealing with life stresses or emotional issues, um, if you bear down with all the advantages on them, when they.

Seeking employment. Um, you know, you may, you may hire someone at their worst mm-hmm and that experience will then color everything after I, I suspect, uh, but there’s, there’s whole, there’s so many dimensions, uh, [00:32:00] to it all. Um, just being clear across the board with the whole team on, um, where everyone’s. Um, yeah, we wouldn’t have any, any gender gap, um, salary gap, if everyone knew what everyone was making.

Nyasha Green: Yeah, it, I think, um, and she, she brought this up like a lot of candidates believe like the employers don’t want the employees to come together and, you know, demand. Adequate and fair pay. And I agree with that a hundred percent, like talking to people who have been like, I’ll never tell anyone what I make.

And I’m like, why? I mean, cuz that’s valid reason. It’s not to tell people what you make, but their reasoning was more so like, well I think I make more of the company, so I’m not going to say anything. And I’m like, you’re probably not making the most. Then you don’t know there you’re selling yourself short.

So I really agree with her point that, you know, It does seem like, it seems like a company trying to keep the workers divided when they do stuff like that. I, I definitely, I agree with [00:33:00] that. I that’s what I believe if I see and hear stuff like that.

Dan Knauss: Yeah. Well, it’s old as the Hills, but, um, yeah, it’s very, I think it’s very difficult depending on, on how far, how far that goes.

Um, mm-hmm, , it’s very difficult to. People to function well as a team and build a, a company culture without real trust mm-hmm . And once it starts to become a faked thing or, um, you know, people just doing, doing what they, you know, presenting themselves as how they. They think they need to be seen, um, not expressing how they actually feel about their, their job satisfaction.

That’s, you know, that’s a not gonna be, not gonna be good for any, anything, and in relationships. And it probably impacts performance in some way. It would be really cool. If someone got some data on that, like let’s look at, let’s look at [00:34:00] relatively similar companies that pay transparency, no pay transparency.

Are there trends in the overall bottom line in results for the, for the company productivity, for the team, um, satisfaction ratings. I would, I would think happy employees make good results in good profits. Longevity.

Nyasha Green: Same, same. I just . I, I like Colorado’s, um, law on it. Colorado requires you to pay. You know, post the pay and, you know, a lot of companies have been skirt trying to skirt around that.

And that just says more about the company than you. Anything else. And I’m, I’m definitely paying attention to that. I can start up multiple blood feuds if I need to. But, um, , I, um, I really like that, you know, you have to post post the pay. And I think a lot of companies also, they know that they’re low balling people.

They know that they’re being cheap. They know they’re not paying people with their [00:35:00] worth and that’s what scares them. But I am optimistic about. I think that more and more states, probably not South Carolina, but more and more states will join in on this. And I think eventually it will be like a federal law in the United States, at least I hope.

Uh, how, how do you feel about the us and Canada in regards to this? That

Dan Knauss: would be, that would be great. And it’s, it’s interesting that it’s happening now. I, I think in. Yeah, it’s, it’s an interesting historical shift because it it’s something that’s happening out outside of a, you know, organized labor movement, which is still stronger in the, in Canada.

Both have trended down enormously over over the years. There are, there are, you know, little interesting movements, uh, big New York, uh, Web development agency. A friend of mine works at, um, formed union. Uh, you’ve got people managing to do it at Amazon throughout, [00:36:00] throughout tech, but I, I don’t think that that’s the, that’s not really the model anymore.

Um, and they didn’t adapt well to, um, kind of postindustrial economics. And this is, this is more of a, um, seems more of a cultural thing. I feel. Kid, um, younger people, my kid’s age, and, and to some extent, us Xers started to see things more. And look, you know, we, we can talk about this publicly and exert pressures, um, for this is the kind of culture we want.

This is how you should treat people. And it’s, mm-hmm , it’s okay to talk about them more openly and ethically. Cause I think we’re on the other side of like civil. movement and stuff. It’s hard. It’s hard to, you were in a real radical, if you were saying things about transparency, maybe in the, in the thirties, or even trying to get something mm-hmm and, and all of, because there’s [00:37:00] intensely segregated apart science society with different blocks of people who, you know, weren’t really willing to go to bat for each other and.

It feel, it feels like it’s just a different context and in some ways that’s, that’s really healthy and it can be less conflicted mm-hmm and it’s, it’s cool to see, I think, in, in the WordPress community, for sure. Um, it has maybe there’s something to do with our aging. We’re paying attention to accessibility mm-hmm and show up stability and, and you know, how we feel about.

Or work on life satisfaction. And I think younger mm-hmm people are tolerating less nonsense than we did. And times maybe tighter to, I don’t know. Right. yeah. It’s not that, I don’t think it’s that much different Canada. Yeah.

Nyasha Green: um, we’re starting more blood feuds. I’m sorry. I, uh, Tom Finley said that on Twitter.

He was like, I’m sorry that happened to you, but I can’t think of a better company to [00:38:00] start a blood feud with. And I was like, oh my God, I’m gonna start saying that. Thank you. thank you, Tom. You’re the best

Dan Knauss: well, we actually have quite a lot of employers like, like yours, who would do this voluntarily. I think mm-hmm

Telling them to, um, Rob has definitely been a voice for that. And there are plenty of others who have been there all along. And it’s definitely something we can choose to change just by talking about it, wanting and wanting to mm-hmm um, same as the accessibility thing, which is related. Um, I think the getting diversity equity and inclusion at the forefront.

Everything organized. We do from word camps to how you think about employment, um, will, it has it’s best, you know, it has to be done authentically. Um, I mean, great. If you’re just following the rule and following other people, I guess that’s what brings everyone along, but mm-hmm, [00:39:00] ideally you actually care about the culture you’re building and working in and the people you’re you’re

Nyasha Green: affect.

I agree it would improve so many other areas outside of patron Spency and accessibility. So I definitely agree. It seems to be

Dan Knauss: happening. I mean, there’s no, mm-hmm , um, you know, there, there was a bit, bit of static about travel scholarships or, you know, funding. Oh yeah. These are things like that, but I think that’s that started to change and there’s, there’s definitely a, I’ve only heard positive and receptive support for, um, doing what needs to be done to improve accessibility at conferences and the, and this whole transparency issue.

The there’s a lot of positive signs about it. So, you know, I don’t, I don’t feel like it’s not one of those issues where I feel like there’s gonna be a bunch of drama or mm-hmm, , there’s a mind field of things. And if you say the, the wrong thing, someone’s gonna get really upset. Um, [00:40:00] it’s just not, um, It’s not at that, that level, which is, which is cool.

It’s, uh, reasonable, mature, um, conversation to have at this point. Mm-hmm um, in, uh, WordPress history, I guess. So what, what do you think is what are, where do the next. Next moves. Do you, do you think for your you’re always, you’re kind of a change agent. I

Nyasha Green: chaos change agent. Um, but you’re asking me, what are the next steps for, like, for what,

Dan Knauss: where for these kind of issues that, that you’re, you’re hoping to see change in, do you have, do you see specific things moving or where you’re, where you and, um, Rob and the rest of your team are, you know, acting as influences or other people out there?

Um, Who know what strings to pull to make things happen? I mean, [00:41:00] can’t, did you listen, were you at Cammy K’s uh, session at or camp? No, mm-hmm . That was definitely central to, to all of this. Um, yeah, I think there’s will to will to change and certain. Voices driving

Nyasha Green: it. Yeah. Um, our pretty much agreed model and way.

Um, and that’s, this was for me, even before I got into tech is to lead by example. And Rob does a really good, um, job of that, but that also helps us out too, as employees to push for these changes, because we can say, Hey look. We went and worked for an employee that was very transparent on pay and look how it’s working out for us.

So, you know, we’re not just yelling at people and telling them to do this, and it’s something we have no knowledge on and we have no experience with. Um, so we’re definitely doing that. Um, in terms of accessibility, I think that’s going to take a community effort as well. Um, I think I talked about that, but one of my suggestions was, oh yeah, I did talk [00:42:00] about that earlier to just get like, we need like community transp.

And we to make sure, sure. It’s accessible. We need, you know, and nothing. And I wrote this in article too. The volunteers and organizers for work camp were amazing and it was amazing. But we have to do better by everybody in the community by making sure things are more accessible. Um, absolutely tell wide.

So I think it’s a community effort. This can’t fall on just one person. Yes. So just by leading the community, making sure we all know that we all are obligated. That’s how I tell people we are. We’re obligated. Even if it doesn’t apply to you, that doesn’t mean one day. It won’t, there’s this big thing where people think that they won’t, some people think that they won’t ever need accessible things and you don’t know that anything can happen.

You see my foot, I am. If the elevator breaks in my building, I can not leave so well, I can kind of waddle down the stairs, but you know, don’t try to, oh, I won’t, it will have to be an emergency. Um, [00:43:00] and you know, I was just walking around. At workout two, two weeks ago now so, you know, it happens, things happen, life happens.

So we’re obligated to, in my opinion, do this for everyone. And even if you just know in your heart, nothing will ever happen to you. you just be obligated and helpful for your fellow community member?

Dan Knauss: Absolutely. Yeah, the care. And there was tons of it to, to feel an experience there. And it, it was great that people mm-hmm , um, genuinely.

Caring for each other. And I think that’s what it takes without, you know, without empathy for others. Um, and the ability to imagine their perspective and experience. Um, we’re not very nice people, not very good to each other and that’s, that’s key to it. And you’re right. Every time I saw those blue blue shirts, the volunteers, um, I, I said a lot of thanks and, and, you know, commiserated and, you know, eh, Don.

don’t [00:44:00] focus, you know, everything’s not gonna be perfect. And mm-hmm we love you. anyway. that’s your thank you for, for what you’re doing. Mm-hmm yeah, I think AF afterwards they, they should all get like a gratitude care package or something free

Nyasha Green: massages.

Dan Knauss: Yeah. Yeah. Cause it’s, it’s gotta

Nyasha Green: be spa day. Yeah. I will buy two spa days.

For them. Okay. We’ll talk.

Dan Knauss: I floated the idea with Michelle. Okay.

Nyasha Green: Sweet.

Dan Knauss: All right. Well with that, then I’ll cut and start editing.